Aibu to advice my friend not to have a third child because she does not have a career?

[Rebecca2014]

My friend leads a nice lifestyle with her husband and two children, they have been discussing having a third child. With the thought of the 2015 budget in my head, I told her I would not personally have a third child because you never know what could happen in the future (separation etc)

Her husband is the high earner in the family. If they split, most likely she will end up on welfare. Even if she gets a job, she will need tax credits and obviously we all know they are going be cut and limited to two children. Is it wrong of me to think women who do not have careers should not have three children? due to the risk of being in poverty if the relationship fails or something happens to the husband career.

I know you cannot go through life thinking what if...however I feel women who rely on their partners income are at risk. Am I overthinking this?

I can understand having that as a personal opinion, i.e that you wouldn't feel safe having a child without a career but that's you, not her.

I want a third dc and have no career. I have a job and potential for a career, but actually just stepped down from a senior role cos I don't want a career.

I rely on my husband to pay for us all, I have a mental health condition which means it will always be this way. We have life insurance to cover me if the worse happened, but nothing if he left me. I feel safe still..I am not stopping our lives because.of a what if. I won't live that way.

If i were the friend I would be offended because the main premise of not having the 3rd child is that DH might fuck off and leave me financially in the lurch. (DH losing his job would be awful, but something to work through together. No one would be 'left to cope'. No one would be left wishing they hadn't had DC no x, y, z).

Not a nice thing to suggest.

Is it wrong of me to think women who do not have careers should not have three children?

Erm…yes. With fucking loud bells on.

Your post sounds disingenuous at best and I read it as a badly disguised attack on your 'friend' and any other women who non-working or low-earning status you 'care' so deeply about.

I posted because generally though I am concerned for the future of women who do end up in that situation

I'll exercise my right to not actually believe you, and read your post as a head-tilting-to-one-side, high-ground grabbing attempt to needle other women, frankly.

And I'm a former lawyer, now self-employed with 3 children. So at least I don't need your 'concern.'

If someone said that to me I'd be fucking offended you were questioning my marriage.

YABVU

What I posted here my are own personal ramblings. I did not say this to my friend, the only thing I said was I personally wouldn't due to the what ifs. She was not offended at all, personal choice and all that. So we can stop talking about my 'poor offended friend'

I think this is an situation some women will end up in the coming years and will struggle so its a valid point to make and think about.

I'm preganant, lost my job a few weeks in and now totally rely on my partner. It's not ideal by a long shot, and of course I have thought about 'what is disater struck and we split'. However, the likelyhood of that happening is as much as me being struck by lightning or winning the lotto jackpot as far as I'm concerned, therefore a moot point. He can support us (in the short term at least, I fully intend to get another job at some point, but that's just as much for myself as it is for family money). This is my situation though - I'm aware of it, have thought it through, and understand the negatives of my situation. It also makes me very grateful for a partner who can support us in this way - as perhaps I may have to do for us one day if circumstances change. I would not appreciate anyone in my wider circle pointing out any of these things to me, our choices as a family harm no one - we have a roof over our heads and food in our stomachs. You shouldn't play 'what if' with your friend - instead ask if she had ideas for a job or career in mind, talk through options with her, see if there are any courses she would like doing. If she's only really interested in raising a family, that's her perogative. Focus on positives, not negatives.

Following this sort of logic, it would make more sense to advise women to have no children at all if they don't have a career.

After all, a woman with only one child could still find herself in a financial mess if she splits from her partner and has no career.

Tbh op while everyone will jump up and down about how rude you are IF my friend in the sane situation asked it's exactly what I would tell her. Because I firmly believe the point of friendship is to help each other which includes pointing out the unpalatable when need be. However if she did decide to have another is be delighted for her and fully support her, especially as I'd know she was fully aware if the potential impacts.

YANBU

The 2015 budget is intended to make life very difficult for women in exactly her situation.

The idea is that unless you are rich enough to never, ever need benefits of any kind, you are irresponsible to have more than two children.

Or any, really, because the aim is to dismantle the welfare state and just leave a threadbare "safety net" of poverty in which you won't starve, but will have a shit life.

YABU wtf has a career got to do with having children.
I can just imagine our ancestors considering children without a career. Many of us don't have a career as we see it as getting in the way of us raising our children how we want to.
Mind your own business.

I don't understand why you are getting such a hard time. I think the fact that the state would not support a third child if they split or DH lost his job or something happened to him etc are very valid considerations.

One of my friends is remarrying and along with being delighted I will be reminding her to think about how she can protect her assets and ensure her existing children would be provided for if something did happen to her. We met on a law degree so both know the pitfalls quite well. She knows I want the best for her and I'm thrilled she's found someone to be happy with, but I don't think that precludes tactfully reminding her of the implications.

Since you are one for giving advice OP, please allow me to give some.

MYOB

I agree with bathtimefunkster

Museummum
There are a lot of absent parents out there not supporting their children but no reason to think a good involved father with a stable and good salaried income will not pay their share if the couple do split.

Exactly. This stuff gets talked about on Mumsnet as if the only option for a divorced dad is to pay as little maintenance as he can get away with.

Well her friend asked for her advice so I think YANBU in that respect. Would people rather she lie? I think the basic premise that couples (rather than only women) think about how they can support another child is basic and responsible behaviour. I also believe that going ahead and having another child on the assumption that the state will pay for it is risky and short-sighted. (Obviously there are many occasions when the situation changes and people need the safety net of welfare; that's different.)

However, I think placing respsonsibility on woman-kind only is definitiely unreasonable.

From my own point of view, having two incomes is preferable purely because it reduces the risk of becoming destitute if something goes wrong. My Mum stopped working when she has me + 2 siblings. My Dad had a very good, but became very ill and couldn't work when I was 9. My parents just managed to feed us and keep paying the mortgage. It was horrible growing up in a house in benefits--I remember living on beans and toast some times and my mum just being able to have enough pennies to buy milk. Those memories very much shape my belief that being a SAHM is risky.

Sorry for the crap typing. I'm on my phone and it's a busy house...meant that my Dad had a very good job.

dude a friend is someone who listens and cares and has fun with someone. a councellor or financial auditor or lifestyle coach is someone you consult when you want advice abotu whether its the riht choice for you financially to have another child or to persue a career. the way people are helped to come to conclusions about life choices is not by bein told what they shoudl do its by bein helped to consider their desires and the work involved in creatin the life they want. of course do ask her is she willin to put off a carreer to have another child, ask her if she is ready to be broke as a joke when the new arrival comes and if she says yes then you have done your duty as a responsible friend and helped her to think thins throuh by listenin. but keep your own judement about your own ideals for your own life. they dont apply to anyone else.

Awwww, also meant in the last line being a SAHP.

My DH has just been made redundant and is being a SAHP as there are no jobs. No way could we afford to stay in our house if I wasnt earning a good wage. He worked in the oil industry where there were so many jobs, people could demand almost whatever wage they wanted. My DH had every reason to believe he had a rock solid job--then the oil price plummeted and thousands of jobs have been lost.

also its tuff on yoru own but its nowhere near as tuff as not doin what youw ant becuase maybe it will be a financial strule. would you advise her aainst doin an expensive university course which mite lead to a career becuase maybe her husband will leave her and she will have to pay her own tuition fees and do nite work to do what she wants to do? would you advise them not to start decoratin the kitchen becuase maybe he will leave half way throu and she will have to do all the paintin herself?

Love it. Having a 3rd child should be the women's decision as if things go tits up they will not be able to claim.....How about a new policy. If the feckless fathers who don't pay the true cost of raising a child were forced to do so then women wouldn't have to worry about how they will cope and need to claim benefits if their relationship breaks down . However feckless dad can then go off with a new women have a child and claim benefits for that. Why is it women are the ones who are punished the most?

Yes, you are overthinking this.

What I am about to write, I genuinely mean. It is not meant in an aggressive or sneers way.

Are you OK? To be thinking like this sounds slightly over-anxious to me. Has something bad happened to you in the last two years? I'm wondering if you are projecting some unresolved anxiety about something traumatic that affected you.

It genuinely isn't normal to worry about this sort of thing.

It is risky, I'd agree with dontrunwithscissors and others here. But as with other risks, it's a personal choice. I can't understand why some posters think the OPs friend should not be allowed to ask for and receive her friend's opinion.

It seems clear that we're heading towards a Britain where any safety net is being pared back and back. Assumptions about being able to care for your children made in more caring times may no longer be valid. Going through a perfectly normal bad patch (long illness of main breadwinner, or another member of family) which would have been something you could bounce back from previously - not so easy now.

My mother gets anxious like this. If someone visits her, she makes them 'phone when they arrive home because she thinks the will crash. She worries about terrorist attacks in shopping centres.
My suspicion is that it is rooted in undiagnosed, untreated PND and childhood trauma.
She would worry about someone's not-even-existing third child.
If has worsened as she has aged and she is now unable to travel to unfamiliar places.
It is very sad.
If this thread is for real, I would urge the OP to see about getting this treated now.
It seems within the limits of something reasonable but stop for a moment and consider it. It is NOT normal to be worrying over someone else's completely hypothetical decision to have a third child.
That is NOT the thought-process of someone in good mental health.
I don't think we should be enabling this.

I think that the new legislation means that you will not get any additional financial help if you have a third child, and that this will be an important consideration for some families to have to consider.

From that point of view, YWNBU to mention the point to your friend.