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Original poster

i am loathing the gradual creep of the term 'gotten' on here

291 replies

FrankietheSquealer · 09/07/2015 17:07

Please desist

OP posts:
TheChandler · 09/07/2015 22:21

I got would do in both cases murmuration.

You exemplify what I meant earlier by "gotten" tending to be used in the past tense in American English. Sort of as a past tense of a past tense, if that makes sense.

I think using gotten only complicates understanding, rather than assisting. I wouldn't be sure if you had got the bananas a long time ago or just that moment!

SenecaFalls · 09/07/2015 22:26

Chandler Do you avoid all past participles in speech? Gotten is simple, really. It's a past participle of an irregular verb.

TheChandler · 09/07/2015 22:29

Its also a plural Seneca. I don't use it, because its grammatically incorrect in modern English, as it no longer forms part of our speech.

Which part of England are you suggesting it originated from, so as to justify your argument? All of England? You are aware that the British Isles doesn't only comprise England of course?

Yes, of course I use past tenses when necessary.

SenecaFalls · 09/07/2015 22:35

I don't know where it came from (will research that later), but I am fairly sure that the folks didn't disembark from the Mayflower or some other ship in some other locale and say, "Oh, here we are in the New World. Let's start saying "gotten."

I don't understand what you mean by it being plural.

And it is grammatically correct in American English.

Featherbluedot · 09/07/2015 22:36

'In previous weeks I have gotten bananas at the store'.

I totally agree OP. This is exactly what is infuriating about using gotten.

In previous weeks I bought bananas from the store. How difficult is that.

SenecaFalls · 09/07/2015 22:37

You are aware that the British Isles doesn't only comprise England of course?

I went to university in Scotland, so yes, I know that. Smile

ApocalypseThen · 09/07/2015 22:41

It's very like the idea that Halloween is American. There are many English people who don't really believe that the world outside England and America exists.

SirVixofVixHall · 09/07/2015 22:43

I actually cringed when I read "I should of gotten two, my bad"......I need a little lie down now.

SenecaFalls · 09/07/2015 22:43

From Shakespeare's Richard III

With much ado at length have gotten leave,
^To look upon my sometimes royal master’s face.

SirVixofVixHall · 09/07/2015 22:47

I wasn't allowed to use "got" at all in written English at school. It was most severely frowned upon!

emilywrites · 09/07/2015 22:49

Chandler, I also don't understand what you mean by saying that "gotten" is plural. Also, it IS grammatically correct in American English. Finally, "modern English" means the English language from about 1500 until now, and "gotten" was grammatically correct in Britain at some point between then and now. I think you mean "contemporary British English", not "modern English".

I'm sorry, Chandler, I don't know exactly where in the British Isles "gotten" originated, but in the course of my graduate studies in English Literature, I had multiple (British and American) professors who referenced, mentioned, or noted "gotten" as a part of speech that had once been "British English". There was never any debate or ambiguity or doubt about that point; it was mentioned in passing as a matter of course. It came up mainly in discussions about specific bits of Elizabethan literature, such as Shakespeare, Christopher Marlowe, etc. I don't know if it was widespread before/after the Elizabethan era, but I'm going to find out.

emilywrites · 09/07/2015 22:51

"You are aware that the British Isles doesn't only comprise England of course?"

That's a bit mean...

I'd like to note that "should OF gotten" is not correct. "HAVE gotten" is correct.

Stitchintime1 · 09/07/2015 22:54

It's probably been mentioned but I wish people would stop saying, "I was sat." Also, "Me and DH went..."

TheChandler · 09/07/2015 23:02

Well, surely there must be some rules in American English for its use?

"I have got"
"You did get"
"We have gotten"

That would follow the pattern of all other Germanic languages.

We don't all speak like Richard III or Shakespeare. In those parts of the country whose English was dominated strongly by Danish rule, I would be surprised if gotten were ever used. Its just a theory.

LaVolcan · 09/07/2015 23:10

Shakespeare's speech was south Midlands. I can't imagine a northerner saying gotten.

But when did proven creep into common usage? It used to be Scottish but the English was proved. Now, is that a Scottish usage that we have borrowed via America?

DoraGora · 09/07/2015 23:11

Gotten is simply the past participle of the verb to get.

SenecaFalls · 09/07/2015 23:13

The rules in American English depend on the contextual meaning of "to get."

grammarist.com/usage/got-gotten/

emilywrites · 09/07/2015 23:13

There are specific rules pertaining to "gotten" in American English. Here's a website I just found that has some of them: www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/gotten.html

And just for fun, here's "gotten" in conjugation:

I have gotten
You (singular) have gotten
He/she/it has gotten

We have gotten
You (plural) have gotten
They have gotten

purplemeggie · 09/07/2015 23:13

So many of these wind me up, too. A variant on the "I'm good" is "you're doing good" - someone said that to me during a long sponsored swim recently and through gritted teeth I muttered "no I'm not, I'm doing WELL" (but quietly, because she was trying to be nice). Thinking about it, perhaps she was alluding to the charity fund-raising. No?

yy to "myself" instead of "me".

SenecaFalls · 09/07/2015 23:15

Proven or proved

grammarist.com/usage/proved-proven/

LaVolcan · 09/07/2015 23:15

Don't get me started on 'raised' instead of 'brought up' for children. It's not as though they are prized geese or something!

Original poster
FrankietheSquealer · 09/07/2015 23:30

oh . this thread has got boring

i am loathing the gradual creep of the term 'gotten' on here
OP posts:
emilywrites · 09/07/2015 23:31

Here's gotten's etymology, as provided by dictionary.reference.com:

1150-1200; (v.) Middle English geten < Old Norse geta to obtain, beget; cognate with Old English -gietan (> Middle English yeten), German -gessen, in vergessen to forget; (noun) Middle English: something gotten, offspring, derivative of the v.

I found the link/reference within a fascinating article by novelist Sarah Woodbury. She apparently writes novels set in medieval Britain, and wrote an article, "On the use of the word 'gotten'", in response to questions from her British readers who wondered why British characters in her novels say "gotten"; here's the link to the article: www.sarahwoodbury.com/on-the-use-of-the-word-gotten/

Original poster
FrankietheSquealer · 09/07/2015 23:33

i don't care its not proper modern english

OP posts: