25 when did it become not an adult?

[Samcro]

so under 25 you don't get the new wage.
surely 25 is and adult. someone who has left education and home, hopefully been working a few years so why?
why is say (for example) a 23 yr old thought to be worth less?

I think this needs to be raised as age discrimination in the same way gender discrimination is dealt with. The Govt are making age discrimination legal with these new laws. It needs challenged. It very obviously isnt ok.

All I am really saying is this.

Yes, it's hard but it's not impossible.

I do emphasise. I've been there. Done that. I lost everything in a fire when I was about 19 on a low paid job working in a hospital as a health-care assistant on the bank staff, so my hours weren't even guaranteed ( I was fortunate though to get regular work). I literally had the clothes I was standing in. I ended up living in shared accommodation with 5 other people, and yes, I struggled. I worked about 48hrs a week. More if I could get extra shifts.
I've got to the end of the week with only a few pounds left in my purse, and saved it for some new shoes. I had to walk three miles to work, come rain or shine. I've had to have just sandwiches and squash and my lunch treat was a Tesco value chocolate digestive! Because I couldn't afford to buy the equivalent of a can of pop and a chocolate bar each day. I didn't go hungry. Not in the least.
I just had to make choices. I couldn't have a £25 mobile contract, I had to go to the library to get on the internet to apply for other jobs. I did all my washing in one load, because I could only go to the launderette once a week I had to wear all of my clothes, bar one set, wash and dry them all in one load and have them dry for the next day. Including uniform for my job. I had to buy my clothes in charity shops for 50p. I had one plate, mug and bowl etc, because they were 10p each from the charity shop and I didn't really have spare cash to buy extra things like that. I slowly built up my stuff. I even had to buy my shoes form the charity shop to tide me over whilst I had to save for new ones.
It was hard, but it was not impossible. So, I do not think it is impossible for the hypothetical 16 year old.

I'm not some cold-hearted bitch. Honestly! :)

At 24 I was running my first trading book at an investment bank, selling to asset manager who were investing in behalf of pension funds. I had flipped houses since 19 and bought my first place in London. Friends were married with a couple having small children. Shockingly I'm not 50 but 35 and I don't think much has changed. If anything we should be encouraging 16 year olds to leave school and get a job with a training program, not mooch around in education and live with their parents.

I am actually not in favour of any minimum wages. It's all irrelevant because if a company pays less in wages they should be paying more in taxes on their gain which will be redistributed to their low paid workers. We need unskilled/low paid workers to make the economy work now we are a service based economy. Forget a living wage, it should be a minimum living standard that each and every person (child, pensioner and adult) in society is entitled to.

It is a difficult issue. However it could work as an incentive to them. If they pick the right university and subject and work very hard they might well be well beyond minimum wage incomes by 25!

001, given what you say you've been through, I'm struggling even more to understand the utter lack of empathy in your earlier posts. Why would you wish hardship on anyone?

I'm not sure what your reference to a £25 phone contract has to do with your point, though.

No, Perfect,
My son earns min wage on a zero hours contract.
The £35 is the figure 001 came up with, based on the (unlikely) £300 p/m all in shared house.
In fact, my son has a rented 1 bed flat, but relies on HB, as he earns less than the 'living wage'.
Therefore, he will be unable to pay his rent and will become homeless, a rough sleeper. He will probably lose his job due to being unable to sleep, wash, iron his uniform, etc.
I cannot have him here, as he would be expected to pay the rent and board. Which he cannot afford, on his wage.
Plus, at 21, he would be very uncomfortable about sharing a bed with me (my room is not large enough to accommodate 2 beds).

I'm not wishing hardship on anyone... I'm just saying that the minimum wage is not impossible to live off. Not saying it's right. Not saying it's easy. Certainly nto wishing for peopel to struggle, or saying anyone deserves it etc.

If it helps, I do think it's unfair that a 16 year old would get paid less to do the same job as an 18 year old. But, As I don't actually know the governments 'official' reasoning, I feel I can't comment too much about the disparity. All I can comment on is the lowest wage hypothetical situation.

(the £25 contract was just an example of something I couldn't afford at the time, so I had a cheapy nokia hand-me-down phone and topped up on PAYG as and when I could, and limited my calls etc. I was Coveting it for a long time, I really wanted it at the time, because 'oooh shiny' and it was a 'flip' phone )

001 I've been through what you went through and I don't want a family going without food like I did. I don't want any student leaving university with huge debts. I worked Ft while studying so I could graduate with no debt. I don't want others to have to do this.

Living in shared accomodation has become the new norm for those under 30. That is not right and nothing is being done to address this issue. I am furious that housing costs so much because of manipulation of the market. It's so very wrong that my flat I purchased in 2003 for £250k is now worth £750k while wages have only increased by less than 10% during that same period. The increase in house price is a function of lack of expansion to accommodate the increase in population and uncontrolled purchase of property by foreigners for speculative purposes. Their money is filthy and we have blood on our hands by accepting it. What's worse is that our own people are left paying high rents to these people.

They are assuming people will get support from their parents for longer and longer. That's okay if you have comfortably off parents but what about people who have been in care or have difficult family relationships or come from very deprived backgrounds. Most people between 21 and 25 want to be fully independent in any case.

For those saying they are afraid of pissing pensioners off-I am one pensioner who is very pissed off because of their treatment of young people and people with disabilities.
I know of others like me.

Also who really wants adult kids reluctantly living with them, probably in a small house and where their lifestyles are incompatible.
In some ways the budget could have been worse but younger people should not be treated as second class citizens.

Ok, zero hours contracts are shit. Does he a chance to advance or take qualifications? Is it helping him gain experience in the area he wants to work in?

I know everyone is up in arms but nobody is lowering the wages of the average 18yr old. It just means those over 25 will be on more. If course it's not fair but I'm still rejoicing that this government have even got on board with the concept of a living wage at all.

this "hardship" on leaving home is not anything unusual though - same 35 years ago - if you were unskilled, and you wanted to leave home you took what work you could, there was no minimum wage, you bunked up in a shared flat/bedsit, mattress on the floor to sleep on, boxes for tables etc - can of beans and a spoon was "getting yourself dinner" - only difference was we didn't see it as hardship - it was just "leaving home".

We were paid differently by length of time in the job back then - effectively age discrimination against youth because people didn't move job much at all.

The whole point of it surely is to incentivise companies to employ younger workers who have an unemployment level of 20% under 25???

www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/15258386/why-are-under-25s-hardest-hit-by-unemployment

Housing benefit can be claimed from 21 not 25.

I was running a ward at 25! What is this crazy bullshit.

The thing is the majority of MPs will have very advantaged children, their whole circle will be similar. These children will go from private or selective schools into gap years, undergrad and post grad education and may not even start their first unpaid internship with daddy's chum in the bank until they're in their mid-late twenties. At which point they'll be bought a flat.

They represent us but we don't have any life experiences in common.

Although house prices are ridiculous, living in shared accommodation if you are in your twenties and single has always been pretty standard, whatever your income level.

somewhere People who I work with in London are now 2 or 3 to a room. These people are newly qualified accountants who have a degree and have completed a 3 year training contract. These same people are often asking me for help with getting out of the UK. They want to leave for Canada or America because quite frankly their living standards in the UK are a joke and they see themselves being 35 and in exactly the same position as they are today.

I'm 25, I left home and rented privately since I was 19. I've got a degree and been in a professional job for over 3 years, I am married with a toddler and a baby on the way. Going by what friends have done with their lives this is not that unusual, although a few if them have also managed to buy houses by living at home and saving/help from family. It's ridiculous. Over 18 is an adult in terms of responsibility but not rights, how is that fair?

Sorry haven't read the thread. But I would guess it's been done because of higher unemployment for under 25s. If you are out of work from 16-25 then it's a tough habit to break.

2 or 3 to a room is not standard, but there is nothing new about flat shares.

merrymouse it's changed from being in 20s and single to being anyone under 35 who doesn't qualify for HB from what I have seen. For my friends still in the UK, many couples are renting a room in a shared house. Those who have purchased did so with parental help and some are renting the second bedroom out until they start a family.

I've got a degree and been in a professional job for over 3 years

But presumably you wouldn't be trying to persuade somebody to employ you in a NMW job.

I agree that the reasoning is that it makes it easier to employ unskilled under 25's.

to being anyone under 35 who doesn't qualify for HB from what I have seen

I think that is more a problem of lack of houses near jobs than wages. There are parts of the UK where it is very easy to buy and rent, but they don't tend to be areas of high employment.

maybe the majority of 16 year olds aren't living on their own?

I'm not sure the under 30s being in shared accommodation is particularly new though. All generations of my family have had to do that as far back as I have information. Certainly most graduates always have had to do it.

merry My point is that this budget does nothing to address the housing issues. It's not right that adults are expected to live at home until they are 25. I think, please correct me if I am wrong, HB doesn't cover children past 18 so there is a gap.

As far as I am concerned I would like to see university be for those who are academic and likely to enter a career in research. Everything else should be through vocational training programs where you attend school 1-2 days a week and work the other days. Having been through the 'everyone goes to university' mill I think it's a colossal waste of money for the vast majority of students and gaining work experience rather than debt would be far more beneficial for the 16-25 age group.

A lot of people in professional jobs are making £9 per hour or so as they are salaried and work way more than 35-40 hours a week. Their wages won't increase that much in the next 5 years so many will see their income drop in real terms.

I know quite a few graduates who start work on NMW even in their chosen field. The problem is that by setting this age difference it gives employers an 'out'. They can take on young employees, of whatever education level, and effectively pay them what they want And yes, I also did my time on baked beans and shared housing after I graduated but by 25 I had moved beyond that, even on a minuscule salary. This just provides a framework to keep under 25s in poverty, no matter how hard they work or train.