25 when did it become not an adult?

[Samcro]

so under 25 you don't get the new wage.
surely 25 is and adult. someone who has left education and home, hopefully been working a few years so why?
why is say (for example) a 23 yr old thought to be worth less?

I don't know what to say other than your clearly limited experience of the state sector means you're talking bollocks.

I fundamentally disagree with everything you have written. I've Ben teaching for nearly 25yrs and primary school staffrooms simply are not in any way how you describe. I consider myself fairly well educated and I've encountered scores of colleagues with better qualifications than me. That ultra left wing mentality no longer exists in the schools of today; certainly not collectively.
I also do not accept that the private sector teachers teaching my children are better qualified, better motivated of even better at their job than I am. I'm sure some are as some are in the state sector but it's certainly not a given.

I live in an area awash with outstanding graded schools. All very high achieving. Large amounts of L5s at Y6, large amounts of A*&As in external exams. Kids sent to Oxbridge from both local state comps every year. I don't pay for better results. Im sure it's negligible. I pay for the overall experience.

I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience of the state sector but your perceptions are so far off the mark for the vast majority of state schools these days.

I live in an area awash with outstanding graded schools. All very high achieving. Large amounts of L5s at Y6, large amounts of A&As in external exams. Kids sent to Oxbridge from both local state comps every year.*

You live in an area awash with outstanding graded schools, all highly achieving, sending kids to Oxbridge, and you still pay for your children to be privately educated because their experience will be better.

That is hardly a vote of confidence in the state school system, and it is definitely NOT the selection of state schools offered to most parents in this country. Do as I say, not as I do.

chandler I'm not somebody who does an Internet search or reads an article in the paper to consider themselves an expert. However reading a range of history books that cover the period of the American civil war does give me a much deeper knowledge. I have looked at sites such as Williamsburg and checked the reading list for NYU. My books are 3rd year required reading and I have requested copies of research papers to get an opinion that differs from the text book. The area interests me so if I am still thirsty for more I will go further and look at the taught masters reading list along with the bibliography of the books I have read.

itsnot My observation is that you come across as someone who is sheltered from the realities that our future generation faces. It is totally unacceptable that an 18 year old is facing a bill of £27k for tuition plus probably another £10-15k of debt to cover living costs. I assume that as you are able to afford private school fees you are also in a position to cover your DCs fees to attend university. Do you see how these costs are a barrier to a bright kid who has parents on less than £50k a year with multiple DC, possible debt and/or elderly parents to support?

I say this as someone married to a very high earner (USD $500k+ to be clear) who strongly believes that education should never be a barrier.

I pay for all the things that state education cannot afford. So I pay for small classes and a high staff ratio. I pay for woodland adventure playgrounds and rope swings. I pay for 3hours of sport a week and expert music tuition. I pay for drama taught in a drama studio. I pay for the countless high quality visitors inc authors and artists and curriculum theatre productions. We manage this occasionally in the state sector and like all of the above, we would like to do more but we are constrained by finances.
I also like that I avoid petty rules over what my children eat at lunchtime and when I can take them out of school. I also like that I avoid sats and that my academically gifted ds2 is stretched sideways rather than pushed down a narrow academic path. None of my reasoning has anything to do with quality of teaching. It has everything to do with resources at the disposal of those teachers. Where I live, children are not failed by state education. Independents schools here need to offer something above and beyond academic achievement. They do that very well.

Want2B, I'm not sure why you have decided I'm sheltered. I am very far from sheltered. Or indeed why you think I disagree re higher education. I grew up poor, in a Notts mining village. My DH is a lawyer who grew up in real dire poverty (little food and no shoes)on one of the most notorious estates in the country. Education saved us both from a life of poverty so we most certainly don't agree with any legislation that creates further barriers for bright aspirational kids from deprived backgrounds. It is one of the reasons I chose to teach in the state sector and more specifically in deprived urban areas.

To clarify; I don't think studying for the joy of learning should just be the preserve of the wealthy. Why should all the deprived kids be pushed towards doing something practical rather than opting for a degree in history or fine art simply because they love it? I fundamentally disagree with the idea of telling young people that they need to train on the job because the debt will be too much. And no, we will not be completely financing our children through university as how will they then learn to be frugal and prudent?

I really don't agree with the viewpoints on this thread.

We have a significant problem with unemployment in the 18-25 age group. This will help get people started so that they can get experience and higher wages later. Yes of course there are successful young people who do well earlier, I was a teacher by 23 but not everyone does. A full time job at current nmw would allow one young person in most areas of the country to live independently in a shared house. Most won't have dependents (lets stick with the majority situation).

It won't make all wages for young people lower. They tend to be anyway, when you start a job you usually start at the bottom of the pay range for that role. This applies to whatever your age. Most under 25 year olds will be paid significantly more than nmw as they are now.

The issue with the state sector isn't the quality of teaching, its the exam factory environment where little else has attention to. I so want to send dds to the local independent at 11, sighs..... lottery ticket?

Sorry one point I forgot is that in terms of independent living the just important thing is actually the type of contact. Zero hours at 9.00 is worse than a 40 hour contract at 6.50 if you are trying to support yourself. If the government really want people to be more self sufficient this needs to be tackled.

itsnot With wages increasing to £9/hr many professions are going to have an hourly rate lower than this because they are salaried and work excess hours plus must pay for their education. This means that many at 18 will avoid university and take a job doing whatever because at 25, and for possibly a decade after, they are going to make the same money as the kid who applied themselves at university and qualified in a profession, and actually have a higher disposable income compared to those who pushed themselves to finish their education.

toby We have a huge problem in the UK with education and I think its a significant factor behind the high unemployment rate in the 18-25 age group. State schools have politicians fiddling all the time. Politicians should stay out of it quite a bit more than they do. It also gives me a heavy heart to read itsnot talk about the differences between state and private. Education is about more than academics IMO and it's sad that state schools don't offer the same enriching experiences as private schools. Is it too much to have PE 3 hours a week all through school?!? Heck my kids are going to the local state school here in the US and at PK3 they have them out and about doing all sorts of different sports including swimming, mini golf, basketball, dance and football. She also does a music class twice a week and we pay extra for her to do it in aftercare. Those on low income don't pay for aftercare or any of the optional activities. This is what the UK should be looking at.

But wanttobe the salaried wages will go up in time. The others won't, it's not a static situation. £9 is far from a high wage, most graduates earn more at least after a couple of years.

I agree re education as I said in my post but equally someone with no experience is at a severe disadvantage if the wage rates are the same however good the education system. It isn't a uk only issue either the only EU country that didn't have significantly higher youth unemployment is Germany. Even theirs is slightly higher. For adults 25+ the UK has a pretty low unemployment rate (although zero hours may hide some in reality)

And 12yo are considered adults when flying with an airline... Go figure.

I agree. I think there's quite clearly two reasons why they've opted for 25. Firstly, there is no getting away from the fact that it eases the burden on employers. But secondly, and crucially I believe, it gives a slight disadvantage to the 18-25 age group in terms of getting a job. As Toby says, it's an age group with high unemployment. Is is fair financially? No. But it will certainly make some employers look more favourably on the inexperienced 19yr old. Many at this age will still be living at home and have their living costs subsidised by their parents. Of course some won't and this will be particularly hard on them. But clearly not a statistically high enough number for the government to worry about. They cannot even vote for 2 of those years. I don't agree but I can see why they've done it.

^I pay for all the things that state education cannot afford. So I pay for small classes and a high staff ratio. I pay for woodland adventure playgrounds and rope swings. I pay for 3hours of sport a week and expert music tuition. I pay for drama taught in a drama studio. I pay for the countless high quality visitors inc authors and artists and curriculum theatre productions. We manage this occasionally in the state sector and like all of the above, we would like to do more but we are constrained by finances.
I also like that I avoid petty rules over what my children eat at lunchtime and when I can take them out of school. I also like that I avoid sats and that my academically gifted ds2 is stretched sideways rather than pushed down a narrow academic path. None of my reasoning has anything to do with quality of teaching. It has everything to do with resources at the disposal of those teachers. Where I live, children are not failed by state education. Independents schools here need to offer something above and beyond academic achievement. They do that very well.^

All perfectly sensible and caring parents would do the same. Had I those resources, I may well make those exact same choices. But failure in our school system does not simply come down to class sizes. It is systemic. A combination of substandard resources, adherence to doctrine, flawed syllabi, bad governance, poor management and poor discipline. You do very well to pay for your children not to be put through that wringer, but to go on to say it really is a wonderful system filled with wonderful people, but You won't put your children through it, is a tad hypocritical to say the least.

There's nothing wrong with HappyBurger. They produce really nutritious food. Hygiene standards are second to one, and the staff are all well educated and well informed about the products they sell. Anything we can do to improve your experience we will be happy to do. We offer wonderful employment and training opportunities, and ensure our staff are happy and well rewarded....

... Oh, but I'd never let my kids eat there.

I don't see why I'm being hypocritical at all. If we couldn't afford to pay then my children would attend a local state school. I wouldn't be worrying that they weren't being well taught or that they would suffer academically because they were in the state system. I'd worry about lack of sport and general resources but not quality of teaching.

You made absurd sweeping generalisations about the professional qualities of teachers. You called them lazy and pay obsessed. This is not teachers as a whole. If I was pay obsessed, why would I go into teaching? I would have chosen a far more lucrative profession. My husband earns 5x what I earn and can't understand why anyone would opt to teach.

You obviously live somewhere that has real problems with regards schools. That left ring doctrine you talk about is far more prevalent within LAs than within schools. But difficult, underperforming schools are not the national picture. Nor are they automatically populated with bad teachers. I'm sure some are but many of those teachers have evolved that way after years of battling awful behaviour with little or no support. Other will just be poor teachers who shouldn't be in the job. But you get people like that in every job.

Teachers need to be accountable and their practice held up to scrutiny but judging them on the academic performance of one years cohort is ridiculous. Especially ridiculous is assumption that a given year must be higher than the previous year. Government seem incapable of understanding that the same quality of teaching can result in much lower scores one year from the previous year and that this is all to do with children being individuals. But that's a whole other thread.

I think employers pissed off with these pay limits are actually more likely to employ cheaper younger people so it will probably do their job prospects no harm.

However, is it not age discrimination to a degree?

It depends on the jobs area too. Both of my adult children's employers are currently looking to hire experienced qualified people under 30 and are not finding them., I was speaking to someone regarding work last week and he said his company might pass some more work to me as they just cannot find a good employee to hire in their area. You did not see that 4 year ago. The economy has definitely turned round for the better in the SE.

On an individual basis best to try to encourage your children to go for careers where they are unlikely to be in the £9 an hour range but to aim higher,.

At 25 I was married,was a mother and working and paying tax. If I was adult enough to contribute my money, then I was adult enough to not be treated as 'less' than a 26 year old!