To tell on my friend re Accutane off internet?

[LeftMyRidingCropInTheMortuary]

Hello.
My friend has had moderate acne on chin, neck and chest since a teen. Her gp refused referral to dermatologist for Accutane due to history of depression. Friend told me she now ordered some off internet. Wibu to tell her mum? In case she goes suicidal? Shld I report to police to intercept illegal package?
Thanks.
Ps friend has tried everything else gp will prescribe apparently. What if this wld actually help her???

BrandNewNickname so sorry that happened to you, that sounds horrendous .

It's horrible that all those people judged you when it wasn't even your fault, people can be such arseholes.

Saying that I and other women in my situation might make roaccutane a target of anti abortion campaigners is offensive and hurtful. As is saying that we will be responsible if it gets withdrawn completely or just withdrawn from women, etc.

There is already so much victim blaming when it comes to rape. I still kind of blame myself for it sometimes but know deep down it wasn't my fault. It took me a long time to realise that however.

Adding even more blame and trying to guilt people by saying "it is your fault if it gets withdrawn. It doesn't matter that you were just unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time, it is still your fault and you will be held responsible" is just not on.

All very well and good, but that is not what I said.
I was talking about women who refuse to take effective contraception and fall pregnant.
Your situation was a one in a million. There are very few other women in your situation.
To make it crystal clear, I was not talking about women who are responsible but suffer rape combined with a most unlikely simultaneous failure of those two methods.

Taking effective contraception is supposed to mean you do not fall pregnant no matter what happens. Effective contraception does not mean a condom or abstinence. It means the pill and the coil or two other methods in combination that are under the control of the female.

Your pregnancy fell under the category of pregnancy while taking accutane, because that is what happened. There is no way for the doctors or hcps or for you to prove you were or were not using effective methods. It is a shame that you felt so judged by the medical professionals and that it added to your misery at that time.

But irresponsible women who refuse to use effective methods of contraception provide grist to the mill of anti-abortion campaigners who can exert pressure on one of the four manufacturers of the approved brands of accutane used in the US. It is selfish to stand on rights when so much is at stake for other women. They absolutely will be responsible if their choice to lie to their doctors about using two effective methods or to refuse to use reliable methods ultimately means accutane is associated with abortion and pressure from the anti abortion lobby results in accutane only being prescribed for men.

I find your attitude towards rape victims to be quite concerning mathanxiety. It is pretty fucked up that you seem more concerned about how a pregnancy resulting from rape will effect how roaccutane is prescribed in future and how it will piss off anti abortion campaigners than you are about how it effects the victims life.

To make it crystal clear, I was not talking about women who are responsible but suffer rape combined with a most unlikely simultaneous failure of those two methods.

I think what BrandNew was trying to say is, how do you know which one was responsible and used contraception and which one didn't? She knew she was using contraception correctly but the HCP's obviously didn't because they doubted her and questioned her. Even then they apparently still didn't believe her.

It don't have the attitude you think I have towards rape victims. I am not more concerned about how rape affects a woman's life than whether accutane is available for women in the future.

I have an attitude towards women who refuse to use two effective forms of contraception while on accutane.

I also have an attitude towards those who would use their opposition to abortion as a means to remove accutane from the list of remedies accessible legally to women and girls who suffer from acne.

I do know what women are responsible and use the two effective methods. Or rather I know who they are not. They are not the stupid women from the acne.org forum who propose to sign the iPledge and then lie about using two forms of effective contraception, and they are the ones who refuse to take contraception on the grounds that they are celibate/religious reasons.

'She knew she was using contraception correctly but the HCP's obviously didn't because they doubted her and questioned her. Even then they apparently still didn't believe her.'
It is highly unlikely that two effective forms of contraception (pill plus coil for instance) would simultaneously fail. This is why the iPledge material stresses the need for two effective forms of contraception. The American protocol asks for two effective forms of contraception for good reason.

As far as I can see from BrandNew's posts, she used the pill alone. It is a shame that she was treated so badly by the medical professionals she dealt with after she was raped and had to deal with pregnancy resulting from rape. Her GP who signed off on her accutane treatment with only the pill as contraception should have been reprimanded. It was irresponsible of him.

Maybe you are not aware that the abstinence option was incorporated because of pressure from conservative groups who are bothered that women have access to contraception? Conservative groups have their claws in accutane already.

The ipledge guidelines state that you must use two forms of contraception whilst taking roaccutane - one hormonal one and one barrier. So it wouldn't be pill + coil, it would be pill + condoms or coil + condoms.

I'm hiding this thread.

Also before I go, can I just point out that as someone who has been raped before and has been sexually abused as a child that I've found your posts to be distasteful and quite upsetting.

It is never the victims fault and the blame lies entirely with the rapist.

Yes, rapists are well known to use condoms when you ask them politely.

As someone who never said rape is the victim's fault, I find your posts baffling.

I wasn't talking about rape in that post. I was talking about the iPledge guidelines.

When you pick your two methods of contraception you are expected to choose a hormonal contraceptive (pill, implant, coil, etc) and a barrier method (e.g condoms). It's not two hormonal contraceptives you choose, it's one of each.

Therefore you saying this:

"Her GP who signed off on her accutane treatment with only the pill as contraception should have been reprimanded. It was irresponsible of him"

and this:

"Effective contraception does not mean a condom or abstinence. It means the pill and the coil"

is incorrect.

Condoms are accepted as an effective form of contraception under iPledge. The pill and the coil would be two hormonal contraceptives which wouldn't be allowed - you have to choose one barrier method and one hormonal one.

If BrandNew had opted to use the pill and condoms then that would have been accepted and her doctor didn't do anything wrong been accepting that.

Also AFAIK in the UK (where I'm assuming BrandNew is from) you only have to one method of contraception. It's recommended that you use two forms, but you are allowed to only use one. So even if she had decided to just use the pill then that would be acceptable and her doctor didn't do anything wrong by agreeing to that.

You also don't sound very sympathetic to what happened to BrandNew. You sound like you're judging her.

for accepting that.

Your friend may not need Accutane.

Her GP should refer to a dermatologist if she requests it. There are other options, especially for women.

I still suffered mild/moderate (but annoying) acne into my 40s - and finally have it under control.

I was referred to a Derm who specialises in acne and take Spironolactone. This acts on the effects of the male androgens - reducing oil.

Roaccutane isn't always the answer- and it is worth her trying other options first.

But all you can do as her friend is offer advice.

So you'd choose one primary method of contraception and one secondary one. Primary ones include the pill, the injection, the implant, coils and vaginal rings. Secondary methods would be condoms, cervical caps and diaphragms.

"Effective forms of contraception include both primary and secondary forms of contraception:"
"You cannot use 2 hormonal forms together." -- so that would rule out the pill and the mirena coil being used together. Although you could use a non-hormonal coil I suppose. But both types of coils and the pill both fall into primary methods of which you only pick one.

www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/07/briefing/2007-4311b1-03-addendum-sponsor.pdf

"if you could become pregnant, you must use one form, or preferably two forms, of effective contraception one month before starting Roaccutane, during treatment with Roaccutane and for at least one month after stopping treatment"

www.nhs.uk/medicine-guides/pages/MedicineOverview.aspx?condition=Acne&medicine=Roaccutane&preparationRoaccutane%2020mg%20capsules

So you only need to use one method. It's just two methods is generally preferred.

Either way BrandNew's doctor did nothing wrong.

BrandNew - I just wanted to say how sorry I am about what happened to you. That is horrific. Math posts victim blaming comments like this every time this topic comes up. I have seen her tell a lesbian that she should take hormonal contraception in case she is raped.

Her central proposition that women who are not heterosexually sexually active have a responsibility to take hormonal contraception just in case they are raped, and in case they become pregnant, and in case that pregnancy is used to justify withdrawing the drug is just piling layer upon layer of victim blaming onto the situation. She cannot see that and she never will. The people to blame are:

1. The rapist
2. The fuckwits who oppose termination.

Yes, sexually active women need contraception. Yes teenagers (not famed for far reaching decision making) might be treated differently if they say they will not be. The idea that other women have a responsibility to prepare for rape to avoid a pregnancy that might be awkward to the licensing of a drug is vile.

I am so, so sorry for what happened to you. You didn't do anything wrong. Math is very vocal, but she does not represent the views of most people, no matter how loudly she shouts.

That 'lesbian' poster was a troll as it turned out, fyi.

But thanks for yet another weirdly inaccurate rendition of everything I have ever said about accutane.

Stalking, much?

'...awkward to the licensing of a drug' -- I suggest you get real.
You can deny all you like that there are groups out there who would cheerfully deny women the right to use accutane if they succeed in portraying it as a major cause of abortion, but they are out there and because the pregnancy reporting requirement exists they have statistics to back their case.

Doctors are aware that women lie because they have access to the pregnancy stats too after all, and they can read the forums where women discuss their plans to lie and that is why they treat people like BrandNew as a liar.

It is horrible that she was treated like that.

But at some point women like the idiot on acne.org need to start asking themselves about the effect of their actions on other women.

'Math is very vocal, but she does not represent the views of most people, no matter how loudly she shouts.'

I never claimed to represent anyone's opinion but my own. Yet another weird assumption.

I do seem to be in agreement with a body of medical opinion however.

From a Medscape article for those of you who are interested in discussion, as opposed to casting insults my way..

"Some will protest that making oral contraceptive use a prerequisite for females of childbearing potential who want to use isotretinoin is an unnecessary intrusion, blocking access to this highly effective drug. But this point of view ignores one alarming statistic that bears repeating: For women of childbearing potential, 1 in every 300-450 isotretinoin courses results in fetal isotretinoin exposure. Extrapolating from the recent KPSC study reviewed above, the iPLEDGE program is unlikely to reduce this rate significantly.

The choice facing healthcare providers is therefore simple: regulated access or no access. If we fail to proactively address the problem of fetal isotretinoin exposure, we will lose the drug when FDA pulls it from the market. "

I am not stalking you math. What a bizarre thing to say. You are well known for jumping up and down and saying these horrid, horrid things.

You can deny all you like that there are groups out there who would cheerfully deny women the right to use accutane if they succeed in portraying it as a major cause of abortion, but they are out there and because the pregnancy reporting requirement exists they have statistics to back their case.

I am not arguing about women who are sexually active. I am arguing that your suggestion that women who are not heterosexually active need to use contraception in case they are raped is vile victim blaming. Which it is.

I am not blaming rape victims for anything and I suggest you get off your high horse and pay attention to the issue of pressure on the FDA from anti-abortion groups to pull isotretinoin.

I would like to remind you that at the moment, isotretinoin is the only drug that treats serious and disfiguring acne that can ruin people's lives. There is nothing else out there that produces results like it.

1 in every 300-450 isotretinoin courses results in fetal isotretinoin exposure.
This bespeaks a very high rate of lying, or contraception failure, or abstinence failure. Which do you think is more likely to be the case here?

My guess is it bespeaks a very high rate of both lying and abstinence failure.

I am not talking to you about lying and abstinence failure.

I am talking to you about saying to women that they should take contraception in case they are raped.

Which is victim blaming and is not acceptable.

If you say to a woman "I am sorry, but there is such a high rate of lying about abstinence that I am required not to accept it" (which isn't the case legally, but let's say it was) that's one thing. It has it's issues, but it is one thing.

You have specifically said that women should take contraception because they might be raped. That is vile.

I am not saying women should take contraception in case they are raped

I am saying women on accutane should not rely on abstinence or condoms in case they are faced with a rapist.

A doctor is not obliged to prescribe any drug to anyone he or she feels will misuse it or not comply with the instructions related to its use. The more women refuse to accept the risks of having accutane withdrawn the more they will find doctors refusing to prescribe, even without

I know of at least one doctor (a woman btw) who will not prescribe accutane to female patients unless they have a coil or implant inserted. This is because she was concerned about her patients (1) lying about using the pill, (2) failing to use the pill properly -- missing a day, taking it at different times. And all doctors are aware that women are frequently raped.

archive.lifenews.com/nat3246.html Article from 2007.
"Accutane, also known as isotretinoin, was approved by FDA in 1982 for use in cases of severe recalcitrant cystic acne unresponsive to other therapies including systemic antibiotics.

The drug received a FDA pregnancy category X rating because it caused birth defects in animals and the agency said Accutane should not be used by women who are pregnant or are at risk of becoming pregnant.

But pregnant women used the drug and reports of children born with birth defects due to in utero Accutane exposure became increasingly common.

Pro-life groups complained that, within the FDA, abortion has been viewed as an acceptable solution to the problem of Accutane usage and pregnancy exposure. They also were concerned that drug-maker Hoffman-La Roche also saw abortion as a means of combating potential birth defects.

The FDA addressed the issue over the years and eventually created the iPledge system to monitor usage and prevent women from getting pregnant while on the drug.

The advisors on Wednesday called for more flexibility in rules designed to help encourage women to prevent pregnancies while taking the drug.

Administrators of a program devised to help lower the problems associated with the drug said there were 122 pregnancies during the first year of the program and another 37 in the four months since.

While 35 women who became pregnant left the program, the advisors monitored the rest, according to an AP report. They found that 54 women had pregnancies that ended in abortion and another 17 women had miscarriages while using the drug.

Another 15 women remain pregnant and the one baby who was born to this point escaped any birth defects or other problems caused by the drug.

AP also reported that Accutane's manufacturer learned of 19 other pregnancies among women using the drug, even though the program was supposed to cover every patient, doctor and pharmacy involved in the drug."

I am not saying women should take contraception in case they are raped

I am saying women on accutane should not rely on abstinence or condoms in case they are faced with a rapist.

Of course you are. The whole bloody conversation is about women on Accutane. So it's a distinction without a difference.

You are saying that women an Accutane should not rely on abstinence - and ergo should take hormonal contraception - in case they are raped whilst taking the drug.

That is vile, vile, vile victim blaming.

I get that you are in the US and rightwingers attack women's freedom's left right and centre. The solution is to fight those people. Not tell women on Accutane that they have to be prepared for rape ffs.

Let's be very clear what we are talking about here. You have said the following:

"Abstinence is a choice that no rapist is going to respect"

You have said:

"As far as I can see from BrandNew's posts, she used the pill alone. It is a shame that she was treated so badly by the medical professionals she dealt with after she was raped and had to deal with pregnancy resulting from rape. Her GP who signed off on her accutane treatment with only the pill as contraception should have been reprimanded. It was irresponsible of him."

to a rape victim. Then you didn't apologise for the fact that you'd mis quoted the rules and two hormonal options wouldn't have been viable (so, in a rape situation, one would be inherently relying on one. Unless you chose the copper coil). You totally ignored the posts by Toads correcting your understanding.

You said "To make it crystal clear, I was not talking about women who are responsible but suffer rape combined with a most unlikely simultaneous failure of those two methods." Wow, what compassion.

I am utterly appalled, and I'm appalled at MNHQ that this is allowed to stand.

I think I know what I am saying here, Libraries.

In fact I am sure I know what I am saying here.

And it is not what you think I am saying, that is for sure.

Victim blaming for what? Getting raped? Getting raped while on accutane?
Get a grip.

I know exactly what you are saying.

"Abstinence is a choice that no rapist is going to respect,"

You appear not to understand what victim blaming actually means. That appears to be the main problem. You do know it's not just suggesting someone is to blame for getting raped?