Sex ed - shaving legs in year 5

[Candycoco]

Have posted in education but posting here for traffic.

Dd came home from school today having had sex ed at school for the past 2 days.

I've always been very open with her and have answered questions as they've come up, so no big revelations this week.

However, she told me today that the boys were taught how to shave by male teacher, and girls were taught how to shave their legs. This just doesn't sit right with me. I know 99% of women do shave their legs and it's something I've already talked to dd about as she asked me last year about it and I told her she has to wait til end of year 6 before she starts secondary to do it.

I just feel it's a bit presumptuous and suggests all girls should. Maybe I'm being bit uptight about it but I don't like the message it sends. Is this normal to teach this as park of sex ed?

Thanks

It does seem a bit weird. Is it school control freakery? We can't trust your parents to teach you this so we will? Like at DC's school school meals are compulsory and they even provide packed lunches for trips, because they don't trust us to feed our children?

Dear me! Def s'thing not right here but some thought-provoking points made here. a distinction ought to be made between shaving for aesthetics (beard and legs) and shaving for personal hygiene. BOTH males and females ought to consider shaving armpit hair as it provides a vast surface on which bacteria can multiply resulting, post puberty, in odour and staining of clothes. The new anti-bacterial deodorants (eg Right Guard X-treme) are a blessing but reducing the hair is highly effective. In other words surely a distinction should be made between logic and fashion when dealing with personal and social education (of which 'sex' education is now just an element)?

Does armpit hair increase odour?? If that's the case, does shaving pubic hair decrease odour?! I'm not sure I'd go making those sorts of distinctions unless I was certain of my facts... and also knew about any benefits of body hair in particular places (and the disadvantages of rashes, ingrowing hairs and itching). As for anti-bacterial deodorants, I'm sure I heard on the radio the other day something about the dangers of the increase in use of anti-bacterial products, because their widespread use is increasing the rate at which bacteria become resistant to all our means of fighting them. We don't need the same sort of antiseptic environment in our daily lives as they ought to have in hospitals.

Besides which, a man can collect colossal amounts of bacteria around his moustache and beard when he gets food and drink on them... so why is it entirely aesthetic to shave off a beard, but hygienic to shave armpits, anyway?

Having taught sex ed myself I know that this a question that is often raised by the children. We show a video then do Q and A. Could it be that a child asked about how to shave and the teacher responded? I doubt the teacher said you have to shave but rather if and when you choose to shave. Some kids in that class will not have a trustworthy adult they can ask questions, you do get all sorts of questions as a result.

I was never taught about shaving and wished I had, I used to dry shave for years. I just assumed it was supposed to bloody hurt.

Cdwales do you have the research to back those statements up?

Not shaving armpits or pubes isn't unhygienic as far as I know, if you wash regularly. The current fashion for shaving pubic hair is resulting in increased cases of bacterial vaginosis. How does that fit with the less hair =more hygienic theory?

I've never noticed males smelling significantly worse than females, considering the norm is for only females to shave armpit hair. Again if your statements were true men would smell.

Actually, I find quite a lot of men quite smelly!

I don't shave my armpits if they're not on show because they get smellier if I do. The hair is likely to be there for a reason.

I got quite badly bullied at 10 and 11.It was by the group ofpopular girls. I am fairskinned and wasn't very hairy then but my armpit hair had grown and noone had told me that I should remove it. I had no idea I was expected to do this, so that was one of the reasons I got picked on. They had seen my armpits in the changing rooms. The bullying culminated in me getting my head banged against the wall repeatedly.

Kids can be mercilessly cruel. If I had shaved my armpits I think they would have picked on something else. However, I sort of wish I had known I was expected to do this. Then I might have piped up and stood upfor reasons why you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

I wouldn't want someone telling my daughter how toput on make up and high heels. I think they should perhaps raise a dialogue about expectations, as many of them are rather silly. When I was 16 my friend's beautiful hippy vegan sister an her boyfriend found her stubbly shaved legs really foul and told us it was ok to have hairy legs and that was quite exciting, to be told something so different.

I'm not sure it belongs in a sex education class, but I suppose it goes along with puberty and all the feelings that raises. A bit of a talk on why we don't have to shave our legsat all would also be good. As would a talk on why the fixation on appearance is all rather inevitable, but rather sad.

An Cailindana, I like the points you raised. I didn't feel ashamed of my body until those girls told me I should be.

I don't see anything wrong with it as they will be trying to do it themselves soon and prob get covered in cuts! Ideally someone at home should show them rather than the teacher but obviously that doesn't always happen.

They could just as easily have chosen to focus on your mother's accent or the name of your dog or the make of car your family owned, or the fact that you were late to school. Bullying is never about the specific thing the bullies fixate on or even about the person they pick on. It is always about their own problems.

Clearly, with bullying so rife in schools and seemingly no end to it in sight, there are a lot of parents not doing their jobs.

But not all parents think of it as a rite of passage as shown from this thread.
As i said, i wasn't told or shown and i too have a lovely scar on my leg because of it.
It May seem very simple to say that shaving is easy, well it didn't come easy to me! I had ( still have!) very bad coordination problems. i'm still not brilliant at shaving, prob why i prefer to wax or epilate less painful! ( and messy )

Mathanxiety, I know what you mean. Anything slightly different was irpe for being launched on, but I do think very early on some girls are told or taught somewhere what is acceptable and what is not and not fitting what it is to be a girl in their eyes was a reason I was picked on. It made them very angry. Why did they give a shit?

"Does armpit hair increase odour?? If that's the case, does shaving pubic hair decrease odour?!"
I'm in the US, so any sex ed curriculum will be different, but my daughter was taught (NOT at 10) that pubic hair aids in the distribution of pheromones, so shaving or waxing is undesirable behaviour because it will actually make it harder for you to attract a potential mate (I may be paraphrasing). If that's true, and it seems likely, then it also seems likely that armpit hair will distribute body odour more 'effectively' than a lack of hair. I shave my pits because I find it more comfortable but I have also noticed that it makes a difference in how I smell.

I don't generally bother with my legs, I might shave them 2 or 3 times a year. Not from any sort of feminist conviction, but because I'm lazy. I started shaving them at 12 because I was being teased for having long dark hair on very pale skin, but at 43 I don't actually care if it bothers people and will go out with my Sasquatch legs on full display. I find that the hair cuts down on the glare from my pale blue Irish skin somewhat.
It never occurred to my mum to teach me how to shave my legs, because she doesn't really need to. If discussion of hair removal had been discussed in class when I was already being teased about it, I would have been mortified - sure that the teacher was talking about me specifically - but I would have really appreciated having learned about it before I needed to know.

I don't think your unshaven-ness was what made them angry though. The sort of anger and viciousness that you encountered come from their own insecurity and that is not necessarily related to society's notions of femininity except insofar as they may have come from homes where women were denigrated or where they saw abuse or experienced abuse. They didn't really care about your legs or armpits.

You are permitted to withdraw your child from sex ed classes in primary school, whoreandpeace. Then you can enjoy all the sex and puberty rites of passage you want with your dd...

Thanks for that info rabbitstew, but I had no reason to pull my DCs from sex ed at primary school as our school called us all in two weeks beforehand and gave us a full rundown of what they were going to discuss with the children, showed us the videos, gave us the handouts and also a list of FAQs from previous years. So parents were well informed and prepared for the questions later. I think group sex-ed is a good thing. But nothing was discussed in those sessions that I hadn't previously discussed with my DCs meaning that they went into them informed BY ME. Leg shaving is not sex ed IMO. It is in the same category as body/ear piercing, fake tanning, wearing make up and tattoos - a choice that anyone of any gender can make as they start to express their individuality and is not a "must do" from puberty and beyond and belongs in another lesson at another time altogether.

It's not sex, but it's part of growing up insomuch as a girl will have to face those pressures and will possibly feel a little more confident having been involved in a group discussion about how some people prefer it but it's not essential and knowing that her peers will have been involved in the same discussion. Exploring feelings around body image and sense of self is an important part of growing up and developing healthy relationships.

But surely you understand that there are parents who do not have discussions at all with their children, and even if there are discussions, there are mothers who have such a bee in their bonnets about contraception or leg shaving or makeup or whatever that their children know better than to approach them with questions?

And you must also understand that a list of FAQs from previous years is not necessarily going to be predictive of this year's questions. Leg shaving may not have come up so far in your DCs' school but who can say when a teacher will be faced with a question?

I am interested in knowing what age you believe children begin to show their individuality. What if a 10 year old wanted to do this? When does the right to bodily autonomy start?

It depends on the culture of the school of course, and on what it considers to fall into its remit, but as a pp correctly observed, sex ed is more and more a topic that fits into a larger one that may be called 'social education' in many schools, and that includes self presentation and self care. Not with any directives involved, just a 'how to if you are interested' approach as seems to have been the case here (just as with the topic of sex and contraception -- nobody is telling the children they have to go out and have sex after all, just because they are taught how it is done).

I feel sorry for the teacher in this scenario, from the school's response, the teacher was asked a question and she answered ad hoc. She didn't promote shaving, but said some women do it and this is how, and some don't. I don't see anything here to pull the school up on, sex ed covers growing up and of course questions might be asked on all kinds of aspects of growing up which are socially conventional and not just about biology- things like the age of consent aren't immutable biological facts, but what we agree as a society is ok (and legal), shaving is also a socially common norm like wearing a bra- you can choose to do something different or follow the herd.

For what it's worth, I have just shown my 11 year old how to shave her legs and armpits as she asked me if she could shave her pits and we went through it in the bath. I showed her how to do it delicately to start with (husband's razor may be never the same again) and how to put moisturizer on afterwards. I told her she didn't have to do it, it was up to her. At least now, if she decides not to, it's from a position of knowledge, not because she feels inexperienced. She is already quite well developed with full body hair, so it's hardly like she's prematurely interested in these issues.

When I was 16 my friend's beautiful hippy vegan sister an her boyfriend found her stubbly shaved legs really foul and told us it was ok to have hairy legs and that was quite exciting, to be told something so different you will find that in alternative hippy cultures there are also very strong social norms around body hair (not to remove it) and make up (not to wear it) to the point that those who are not conventional and do remove hair/wear make up are sometimes thought badly of or are at least positioning themselves outside the group. People are terribly tribal and just because they send the opposite message about body hair doesn't make their message any less conventional, it's just their own convention and desire to make others like them (with comments like stubbly legs are 'foul' what an odd and judgmental thing to say!)

When schools run these PSE sessions about growing up, there is some content that has to be covered, but often quite a lot of scope for answering questions the kids actually have. Teachers work hard to generate an atmosphere where the kids feel comfortable and can ask, because lots have parents who won't talk about such things, or even if they will, the kids feel a bit uncomfortable speaking to their parents about those topics - even some of those who have great, very open parents whom they have a good relationship with - it can be part of growing up, not wanting to to ok about this stuff.
So shaving and all kinds of other things can come up. There will be some things kids may ask which are not really age appropriate and teachers will give a very simple answer to or just move on from, but in the main, they will try and answer honestly and helpfully. The information given about shaving sounds like that was what was happening here. It doesn't sound like shaving was being promoted or not promoted. And I suspect it was in the context of leg shaving, not giving oneself a full removal of pubic hair or anything like that. If it comes up, it is right the teacher says something about it....and better to know how to do it safely than not.
It doesn't like to me like the school was 'over stepping the mark' or promoting particular body images.
As parents I think it is hard when our kids are growing up. We are losing some level of control over them. Schools have influence, as do peers and the media etc. There will be various messages coming at them. No doubt at some point girls will sadly hear the message that women's bodies need to. Be totally hairless to be attractive, but I really don't think that message will come from the teachers. I don't think it is worth feeling annoyed about shaving having been mentioned, but the right response is to ensure your children hear the message you want them to hear from you about shaving. You will never entirely know exactly what was said in any situation where you were not present - so just make sure you yourself say what you want them to hear.
Your child will hear a range of messages that you would rather they didn't. We need to make sure they know they can always ask us if they want to, and to explain what we think and why and to put them in a position where they can weigh things up and choose for themselves - but you cannot prevent them sometimes hearing the view of the world (women should be hairless) and actually I really don't think this was what was being said here anyway.

Here, here, ChocolateWombat.

Thenapoleon. It seemed a different and unusual attitude to beaty norms at the time but it was judgmental. You can tell someone that they shouldn't feel pressured to do something without making them feel bad about themselves. I have known a few people that kind of conformed to noncomformity who perhaps were as rigid in their beliefs as they percieved the ones they railed against to be. It was an interesting viewto hear at the time, but could have been said a bit better.

calindana some wonderful posts....but do come join the hairy ones. You stop being frightened after a while...and while the odd dick will make an unwelcome comment, it is worth it in the reduction of guilt associated with perpetuating negative stereotypes of women!

"Does armpit hair increase odour?? If that's the case, does shaving pubic hair decrease odour?!"

NO NO NO.

Armpit hair is there to disperse the sweat. Sweat doesn't smell. With the sweat is dispersed the musk etc. This does smell, but it smells attractive not bad.

What does smell bad is the bi-products of bacterial metabolism of sweat. If you have BACTERIA in your armpits (or often on clothes near that region) they eat the sweat and generate a bad smell.

Because armpit hair disperses the sweat, it REDUCES the bacterial infestation and hence REDUCES BAD SMELL.

Shaving off your armpit hair makes you less hygienic, more susceptible to bacteria and more likely to smell bad.

Having shaved off you hair, you then have to either find a way to prevent the food getting to the bugs (anti-perspirant) or cover the smell (deodorant), none of which you would need if you kept the hair.

Have you ever wondered who it is that is telling us to lose the hair? Yup - the sellers of antiperspirant and deodorant! Talk about creating a problem just so you can solve it to make money....