to be utterly disgusted at people's comments re. welfare cuts

[HappyGoLuckyGirl]

Yes, I'm aware that our welfare system needs reforming. I do not profess to know how this should be done.

I've just read a few articles on the proposed cuts that primarily focused on reducing tax credits. The vitrol is appalling. I can't believe this is the country I live in.

I am a single mother working 40 hours a week also mid way through a 5 year part time degree. I earn slightly over minimum wage. Things are tight enough as it is, with the tax credits I get (80% of which goes on my weekly childcare bill) and now they are planning to reduce them.

I am trying to better myself so I don't always have to rely on benefits to get me through the month and yet I'm being punished! Why are working people being targeted? How is that fair in the slightest? If I wasn't so furious I would cry.

And as for people saying that employers should raise workers wages, I can say with 100% surety that if I approached my employer and asked for a living wage (increase of £8k+) I would be flat out refused and or fired. And I work in a skilled job! What hope do people who work for a large multi-national company have?

I am very this morning.

Damnit, when we were both working and the children were tiny, dh stayed at home. Seemed logical, same profession but I was older and a higher grade. I could have had a sex slave, had I realised!

Totally wasted opportunity Dawn!

I don't really follow the logic that we must all work more and more and more hours, male and female. Where do families come into all this? Where does the emotional side of our children's/disabled dependents/elderly dependants needs come in to all this?

I worked for the first five years of my daughter's life. She hated going to childcare and cried in distress every single day. She loved school from the first day, but was very upset by the idea of coming out of school and me not being there. Not all children thrive better in a childcare setting. If I can make my daughter a happier, more secure, individual by being home for her when she gets out of school, then why not? Surely feminism isn't about inflicting misery on other people?*

• I am referring to my own daughter here, not the children of working mothers in general. I know that the majority of children are perfectly happy in a childcare setting.

Treacle completely agree with that

And of course, I don't mean that no parent should work and families should all sit around discussing their feelings all day. I just mean that I think there should be balance. The idea that every adult should be working at least a 60 hour week for the good of the economy strikes me as very shortsighted.

If every adult worked a 60hour week, it would certainly be for the good of McDonalds and other takeaways. Maybe supermarkets would see a downturn. And definitely local shops/ small businesses would suffer unless they all stayed open until 11pm every night.

Thanks Ledare, that would make sense.

Lotus, I think I understand your pov. But for me, most personal relationships aren't transactional. I think that's the case for most people. Relationships are messy, illogical and full of sentiment.

We rely very much on tax credits at the mimute, we've got quite unusual circumstances in that my dh is disabled and we work together. I'd say we probably work 70+hours a week each, we work bloody hard, tbh, every day. We're also an employer. And with a new business, we're still in receipt of tax credits- child, working with disabled element and childcare.

There is absolutely no option for us for the risks we've taken with our business, to not pay off- it will do, eventually, we know that. But at present, we need tax credits.

If we lost them, we wouldnt be able to live. It's that simple. We get by now, we get up every day to work to make sure that in a year, in ten years, in thirty... We'll be OK. My dh was not found fit for work- the dwp really can't handle someone deciding to try working, when they really shouldn't. Permitted work is a joke. Access to work is even worse. Dh needs help with a lot of things, so it makes sense that we work together. As a carer, I'm unemployable. Dh is completely unemployable too. Our choice was working from home, being on benefits or do what we have done- throw ourselves into it, because there was no way for dh to try working- not from esa support group- dh felt written off. We have nothing to lose.

We spent 4 years on benefits, it wasnt fun. There is no incentive to stay on them, no appeal to it, no lifestyle. Ignorance about people's circumstances though, is frightening. Work harder... We're a bit of a workaholic family... There aren't enough hours in the day.

Getting off tax credits is actually our first aim. But we need them at the minute, to help. And cutting them won't put extra hours in the day.

High fives to the disability fund protesters who attempted to storm PMQ's!

And the companies and top 5 % earners who avoid tax any way they can, and are allowed to to 'encourage business', where billions of our money goes.

Comments like this are ridiculous and as bad as saying everyone in benefits is a scrounger. £60k+ put you in the top 5% and I know plenty of people who (yes, sometimes begrudgingly) pay their tax. Also tax avoidance is perfectly legal and most people do choose to minimise the amount of tax they pay and spend it on their families.

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Still bloody shameful that it IS legal. Don't you think?

The Queen getting money from taxpayers is legal even though she sits on billions. That's shameful, don't you think?

But, yeah, let's bash the poor. FFS.

Bereal just because it's legal doesn't mean it's not morally disgusting

We choose to avoid tax - savings are in my name as I am not a taxpayer.

When you have been poor, every penny in your own pocket counts.

I do not feel I am being "morally disgusting". Don't know anyone who chooses to pay more tax than they have to.

Somewhere, if you are struggling that's different to well off people deliberately getting out of paying tax

I don't think it's disgusting to not pay more than you have to. My parents pay what they have to and then they choose what charities they want to support, but they have fulfilled their responsibility by the tax that is due ' they do not evade tax .

If I am to be in a similar position some day, I'm sure I will do the same. I would not evade tax (mainly because it's illegal) but also because I know that I use the services and I believed disabled people should be supported. However I would not pay than I legally have to. I would rather give to a charity of my choice.

Lawful tax avoidance is a moral good as a big state is a moral wrong. Tax evasion like whilst working whilst on benefits and not declaring the cash is a criminal offence and ought to land people in jail.

The people who don't like people lawfully reducing their tax bills would you be happy with this which is tax avoidance - Jane and Peter both work for £10k a year rather than Peter working for £20k so that they both use their personal allowance? That is lawful tax avoidance. Do you think they should be ashamed of themselves and the people who claim tax relief when they pay into the teacher's or NHS pension scheme? That is tax avoidance.

Exactly Lotus. It's only morally wrong when people richer than them do it. I find it sad how people attack people who are financially successful instead of aspire to be like them. There just always seems to be a reason to why someone else can do it and not them.

Lawful tax avoidance is a moral good

Ridiculous.

What morally good outcome does it achieve?

we have a very wet fairly left wing Tory party

absolute PMSL @ lotus again

Bereal of course it's morally wrong, you are depriving society. Oh and as for the "richer than them" comment, my dads a higher rate tax payer and I had an upbringing that makes me more fortunate than most. So no, no jealousy of the rich here.

Lotus a big state is not a "moral wrong", I'm very confused how you can say that

Just sticking my two penn'orth in to say that for somebody who works 60 hours a week, LotusLight seems to have an awful lot of free time to waste spouting nonsense on the internet.

Bereal I'm sure many people in minimum wage jobs/on lower incomes aspire to be better off financially. It's just a shame that the hours aren't available, promotions are non-existent and in many cases barriers are put up against self improvement from the get-go (see the scrapping of EMAs and the touted scrapping of maintenance grants to understand just how much this govt backs social mobility).

I can assure you, however, that the majority of less well off people do not aspire to be like you, ie lacking in empathy and understanding and the perfect example of the 'I'm alright Jack' Tory ethos.

I know it's a bit off topic, but just read on the BBC news that the Tories want to change the way that child poverty is calculated.
From what I gather, they no longer want to include pension income in the calculations. Could it be perhaps that the reason for this is because pension income continues to rise.
Maybe they're hoping it won't look so shocking when the tax credit cuts that they've promised come into force.

I wonder what im trading in my marriage then

I care full time for my husband who is 65 due to his disabilities. We dont have sex anymore.

So where do i fit in.