To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.

[QuestioningStuff]

Posted before about my pregnancy. I am having a termination today. This is not a decision I've made lightly.

I've arrived at the clinic and there is a middle aged man and his young teen son standing outside with camp chairs and flasks. Putting up awful pictures and signs. Trying to hand out leaflets.

I think women who do this are also scum but how on earth could a man think he has any right to do this? Turn up at a place where women are at their most scared and vulnerable and try to bully them?

It's really really upset me. I hate them so much right now.

I want to go and tell them exactly what I think of them but don't think that would be helpful at this time.

mint no ding agree with you at all about men's feelings.

My 2 lads are in their twenties and have been brought up to avoid causing an unwanted pregnancies as much as possible by being responsible blokes who cover up.

Secondly they have been brought up to belive it's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body and their job is to support her in which choice she makes.

Fwiw my lads feel absolute contempt for blokes who intimidate women in any way and especially those seeking medical help while pregnant and accessing abortions.

"The inquest made 9 recommendations none of which pertained to lack of abortion. "

Here's a summary of the HSE report, which does mention the effect of our abortion laws (chilling effect of legal uncertainty, not offering all options, over-emphasis on not doing anything while there was still a foetal heartbeat):
www.irishtimes.com/news/health/main-points-hse-report-into-death-of-savita-halappanavar-1.1427778

"Care options
The hospital failed to offer all management options to Ms Halappanavar as she experienced inevitable miscarriage, even though the risk she faced increased from the time her membranes ruptured

Legal uncertainty
The interpretation of the law relating to lawful termination in Ireland - in particularly the lack of clear clinical guidelines and training - was a “material contributory factor” in not terminating the pregnancy earlier

Over-emphasis on foetal heartbeat
The report found an apparent over-emphasis on the need not to intervene until the foetal heartbeat stopped, and not enough emphasis on the need to focus on managing the risk of infection"

I'm sorry you regretted your termination, but that doesn't mean that everyone will regret theirs, or that they shouldn't be allowed to make that choice. It's like someone who just emerged from an abusive marriage saying that nobody should be allowed to get married.

Fizzy please stop using the truly ridiculous expression pro life! Unless you are a serial killer everyone is pro life.

Hope you're okay OP. it is such a tough choice to make.

Yes I do think there should be exclusion zones. Abortion is a legal procedure, most take place before 12 weeks anyway.

They are nothing but horrible bullies.

Not everyone struggles with abortion actually, when a friend had one she said her instant feeling was relief and happiness that her nightmare was over.

And the reason you are bit getting anyone agreeing with you is gcs use the vast majority of posters here are adult articulate women who are quite capable of making choices about their bodies without reference to any other person.

You might regret your abortion but you were able up access one at the time. I find it fairly strange that because you regret your own personal decision that gives you the right to think everyone else does/will too. It's a nonsense.

All we are getting is petty language policing, above post should have read 'post-abortive' women and I thought you were going to STFU.

It seems that there is a lot of gratuitous offence-taking in order to justify people's senses of moral superiority.

I don't claim to be more moral, sane, normal or right-thinking than others or assert my view as the only righteous one.

I'm just setting out a different case that's all.

Some people believe that life begins at fertilisation and ought to be protected. They feel that standing outside clinics is justified. I am giving an insight into that mindset.

Also this thread is about protestors and their effect on the OP. Not termination per se. There have been posts from people about 'pro lifers' who still hate the protestors.

A question.

How much effort do pro-life people put into helping to support research into miscarriage?

I ask because something like 25% of pregnancies end this way, and while sometimes it is nature's way of dealing with genetic errors that make a full term pregnancy impossible, it is sometimes unnecessary and preventable. Miscarriage can cause enormous grief even if babies die at a relatively early stage after conception, particularly when women experience multiple miscarriages and think they will never be able to have a family. Proper research can mitigate this and help more babies survive.

Yet somehow because these babies are clearly wanted, this issue seems to be off the pro-life lobby's radar, replaced by intense lobbying of women who don't want to give birth.

Is this a question of stereotyping women into two categories - good and bad - and ignoring the first kind? Because it's more emotive and therefore easier and less effort to address the second?

And yes, possibly the medical team were overly cautious of what they could do within the law, but they wouldn't have been put in that position if the law wasn't there in the first place and they didn't have to make life-saving medical decisions under the threat of going to jail if they "got it wrong". The new act isn't much better in that regard, by all accounts.

I also think the distinction between the life of the mother ("oh well, if you're actually going to die, I suppose you can have an abortion") and the health of the mother (which is apparently entirely subservient to the life of the foetus, even if the pregnancy is going to have permanent health consequences for her) is obscene.

It isn't petty language policing. Language matters. And post-abortive woman isn't better. The phrase you are looking for is 'women who have had abortions'.

No I don't think that everyone else will regret it, but I know that many people do. I also know that the existence of liberal abortion makes coercion a lot easier. My choice wasn't a free one. I believed it was the only option and certainly my mother did too.

One of my friends had an abortion aged 17 decided for her by the school nurse and her parents. It's really easy to just go along with what's been chosen for you by other people, believing it's the best. It happened to a family member of mine too. She had an abortion of healthy twins aged 23 plus 5 because her mum pushed her into it, being an incredibly manipulative woman.

If we are talking about language, abortion is the medical term used for miscarriage as well - it's called spontaneous abortion in that case.

And yet your focus isn't on protecting women from manipulation but taking away the option from everyone?

I choose to define myself as a post-abortive woman. An abortion is part of my life-journey and its up to me how I refer to it. The phrase is not pejorative.

And yes, I donate to stillbirth & miscarriage charities and support teen mothers too. I detest stigmatization of single mothers and believe that cuts to child benefit and disability are wrong. I also hate the death penalty and am a pacifist.

Why is this thread suddenly all about you, fizzyrubbish? You are being extremely disrespectful to the OP.

You weren't using it to self define.

"It's really easy to just go along with what's been chosen for you by other people, believing it's the best."

But this applies to other options as well, not just abortion. I mean, talking again of Ireland, we had years of women being coerced into giving their babies up for adoption - should we ban adoption because "the option being available makes it easier for women to be coerced into making that choice"? Should we ban weddings because of forced marriages?

Sorry OP for continuing the distraction from your excellent and much-needed thread topic.

fizzy nope I never post stfu! Not my post.

Most people do not belive that a group of cells which cannot exist without the mother is a life to be preserved at the cost or of the disagreement of the mother.

You talk about morality? Really? What is moral about forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy? What is moral about denying safe abortions to women who choose them for whatever reason.

What is moral about denying a person bodily autonomy or over ruling their rights?

Your stance is completely amoral to me.

I see you are now becoming more aggressive as you are increasingly isolated on this thread. But that's the preserve of those who seek to deny itgers rights isn't it? To shout and scream at the vulnerable.

Who mentioned taking the option away? I haven't.

I expect we all know friends and relations who have had abortions too. I know at least 4 and none of them regret it for a second. It was the right choice for them at the right time.

Op I have signed the exclusion petition after your posts.

Hope you are ok today

Would you like a change in the abortion laws? Would you like a lower time limit?

Surely if we want to argue language, pro-lifers should be referred to as anti-abortion? It's certainly no odder than using the words 'post-abortive woman'.

As a PP said, we are all pro life unless we are serial killers.

Some of the comments here have been appalling and an example of people hi-jacking the OP's thread to preach their own agenda, which is appallingly insensitive, given what the OP has just been through.

But this applies to other options as well, not just abortion. I mean, talking again of Ireland, we had years of women being coerced into giving their babies up for adoption - should we ban adoption because "the option being available makes it easier for women to be coerced into making that choice"? Should we ban weddings because of forced marriages?

Yep, great point leedy. I would say plenty of women are coerced or manipulated into putting their children up for adoption. Wouldn't it be better to stop the coercion and manipulation rather than just banning adoption altogether?

Who mentioned taking the option away? I haven't.

Oh, could you clarify your stance on abortion then? You are happy with the abortion laws in this country?

Denim. I have remained respectful at all times. Please cite me where you feel I have been abusive.

My response was to someone who claimed that I should have stopped commenting as indeed I aimed to do last night.

Morality is a subjective thing. As I noted several pages back it all depends on what status you give the unborn child/foetus or whichever language you chose to convey a human life force not yet born.

If you are of the opinion/belief that this is human life which we have no right to end, then trying to persuade others of that and not to abort, or trying to prevent abortions is extremely moral.

It all hinges on when you think personhood begins. UK law says at 24 weeks but it doesn't stop people from all sides disagreeing.

This is why people stand outside clinics. They feel very strongly that this is the right thing to do. It doesn't mean they are judging people who go in. And if they make one woman rethink and decide actually she does want to keep the baby, why is that such a bad thing?