To think none of these things are "girly"?

[AlltheWhile]

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3132633/Proud-mother-backs-brave-transgender-9-year-old-son-prepares-school-dressed-girl-wearing-blonde-wig.html?ito=social-facebook article here]

Nail polish has been around for thousands of years, it's only relatively recently become a thing that is seen as female.

Disney princesses for fucks sake. There were not even a thing a hundred years ago. Those women were all still women.

I really don't want to start another transgender debate, what adults do is none of my business, but I do think as a society we need to address the way see gender and children. Unless I am missing it this boy has at no point said he wants breasts or a period or anything that women do actually have.

He likes the fashion and things that are seen as girly and doesn't like sodding football. Neither does most of America. Actually soccer is more of a girl's sport in the states. Maybe all American's are transgender?

Isn't it possible that by making her 9 year old's story public and trying to be so 'right on' that these parents are actually rigidly adhering to a gender binary that says no girl would ever play football and no boy would ever wear a dress? And forcing him to follow a path he might not feel like he can go back on in a few years time?

Should we not just be saying, "yes, ds that is a very nice dress, and here are some glittery shoes to match, but can you please just go tidy your room". And getting the fuck on with it without pigeonholing children?

*(And I'm totally ignoring the dresses, jewelry, tights and high heels worn in the past by men when they were considered male fashion)

mrsGently - do you see being transgender as being a psychological problem, then? If so, why do you think transitioning is the answer? I've actually being fighting against my upbringing which told me than people who believe themselves to be the other gender are mentally ill as I feel that that actually makes me really closed minded. If you (general you) do think that then surely to treat by transition rather than by counselling to accept yourself as you are is the same as treating self harm by teaching where to cut safely and treating body dysmorphia with liposuction?

You wouldn't tell someone with other psychological issues just to 'see how it goes, you may feel different soon', not even a young person.

No I wouldn't, but I would suggest they work on the psychological issue before attempting to medicate it away.. And if someone who was a size 8 said that they looked in the mirror and saw a fat person, I wouldn't suggest liposuction or diet pills. I'm sure by calling it a psychological issue some people would think you had been transphobic.

xpost!

It may be coming over that I think we should have definitions between male and female, so trans can identify, I'm not. As a young girl who was forced to do ballet and called 'weird' for playing video games instead of with dolls, I know how infuriating it can be to be placed in that gendered box. But I feel I have to fight extra hard on the other side of this argument as well, I genuinely believe that many do not get the difficulty in being trans. You don't just suddenly become the other gender, certainly not 'physically'. Your not just given pills and an operation. It's something that takes long time, needs much support and professional help. Articles like this do not help the situation, as it's taken out of context of the reality.

Gender dysphoria is initially treated by a mental health professional. That is how you get an initial diagnosis. Whether it counds as an 'illness' is subjective I guess, but I'd argue no. Ultimately you transition physically into how you see yourself mentally. But unlike girls who 'don't feel pretty enough', trans people do tend to get a greater level of help. I can understand how that seems unfair to some, but thoughts who chose to get help usually find it when they have such body dysmophia (trans or otherwise). It's up to an individual whether or not to change their body to how they feel on the inside, but I wouldn't deny it to anyone. If a woman (God forbid) lost her breasts to cancer, would she not have the right to have surgery? Even if her breasts never developed, due to puberty issues, she should just accept herself? I'm obviously playing devils advocate here, but I don't understand the difference between a trans person having the body they want, and someone born of that gender having a body that represents it.

If you want to go down that path Gently, there are insurers in the US who will pay for MTT to have breast implants but won't pay for women who've had mastectomies due to breast cancer to have reconstructive surgery.

If a woman (God forbid) lost her breasts to cancer, would she not have the right to have surgery? Even if her breasts never developed, due to puberty issues, she should just accept herself? I'm obviously playing devils advocate here, but I don't understand the difference between a trans person having the body they want, and someone born of that gender having a body that represents it.

A woman? An adult woman? No. And i wouldn't try and stop her. But a teenager or a child? Then yes, I would say she is not able to make that decision yet. Again, I'm not trying to debate the adult trans/feminism that's being done on other threads, what I am genuinely worried about is the interventions on children. If your friend wants to have a surgery for the doctors to give her a penis and have medical interventions that's between her and her doctor, but she is an adult.

I'm not saying it fair, especially in the US, but if it's a question of whether one person can change their body for whatever reason, why can't another if it makes them happy psychologically? That's getting into a much larger discussion, I know but I don't think we can have double standards on changing our bodies to make us feel who we truly are.

I don't think we are having the same discussion. I started this thread, not because I am trying to stop people changing their bodies, but because I think it's wrong to change children's bodies.

There are children who transition and then change their minds. Documented cases. And many people who transition still aren't happy. Seeing a doctor and being diagnosed doesn't stop that risk.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/uks-youngest-transgender-patient-seeks-to-reverse-sex-change/

Uk's youngest transgender patient.

“The hormones have given me ­emotions I find it hard to cope with, teamed with a high sex drive,” she says. “Over the last year everything has been about sex and boys and wanting to be loved. “I’ve had a couple of boyfriends who’ve known what I am, but straight men just see me as some sort of lady boy, a freaky challenge to notch up on their bedpost.

And I argued that it is ignorant to instantly dismiss that child as most certainly not knowing their mind about their gender. I have explained several times that it involves much psychological counseling to begin with, and no one instantly tries to physically change the body of a child. They get to chose if they go down the route of 'natural puberty' or suppress it. Start a thread accusing the mother of being an attention seeker, and the child of being coherst into basically living a lie is ignorant. Basing it on the fact that 'boys can like dolls' is ignorant. We know this, boys can play with dolls, no big deal. But unless you actually have the medical standing to say 'this child can't possibly be trans at his age', I will argue you are being very unreasonable. Yes, they may change their minds later on, yes psychologically they may never be 100% happy, but I will not stand to see a young person be denied the chance to venture down that path because some ignorant person believes if we all put aside gender, we shall live in utopia.

Can you please stop calling us ignorant? I probably know more about transgenderism than you do.

Having a different opinion than you doesn't mean I'm ignorant You realise we aren't discussing facts, we're discussing feeling and how we get to those feelings. My opinion isn't ignorant it's different than yours.

Odd.

And yes, psychologist are diagnosing it and they have to go through certain hoops to get to the surgeries and the hormones... But none of those things are certainties whether the surgeries are right for young people. Psychology as a field changes and the way we deal with patients changes, and treatments change. Because we have frequently in the past got things very wrong. My worry is that in 20 years time we will have had a generation of young people who aren't happy because of what is basically a big experiment.

I would suggest, if possible, for anyone interested in the subject to try and watch Louis Theroux Transgender Kids. I always find his brand of journalism to be very balanced, and let's the people he interviews tell their own story. Not for the sake of 'changing anyone's mind', just for a different perspective on the matter.

I am curious why Greatly thinks she's the expert queen

Ah because she's seen the Lousie Theroux special. Right.

You do love the ignorant word, MrsGB. Some of us have thought long and hard about this, read a lot, spoken to our trans friends about it, considered the female spaces and women's issues and where people fit into those dynamics. It is absolutely NOT the same as 'instantly dismissing' anything.

The same way that having a conversation/disagreeing about medicating ADHD is not the same as dismissing ADHD as 'bad parenting'. One is ignorant, the other may be considered and just different to your take on it.

I do believe that anyone that instantly dismisess a child as being possible trans as having an ignorant point of view. The child in question could well be trans, the argument used to argue why no one should pay attention to his feelings were in my opinion, weak. It's only my opinion of course. And I'm not going down the road of 'I know more than you top trumps'. This is aibu, I believe it is unreasonable, I have stated my point as to why. The mother has been accused of being an attention seeker, she can't even defend herself or her son, I think that is very unfair before we begin on the rest. I just don't think anyone here is in a position to fairly argue that this child cannot identify as a girl if so choses.

I wonder if Gently was watching the same documentary. I saw one gay boy who had homophobic parents and another who's mother was clearly disappointed when she heard that her son actually wanted to be a man when he grew up.

I like being a girls and girly things. I like a guy to be one and like guy things. Nothing wrong with specific gender roles/toys.

Im a feminist.

I do believe that anyone that instantly dismisess a child as being possible trans as having an ignorant point of view.

But a parent who assumes their child is a girl because they like nail polish is not ignorant?

Right, glad we got that out of the way. adds to mental ignore list

I like being a girls and girly things. I like a guy to be one and like guy things. Nothing wrong with specific gender roles/toys.Im a feminist.

Confused.

Also a feminist.

I guess we see what we want to see, myself included. I won't change my mind, just like many on here. I was initially shocked that the instant reaction to this story was blaming the mother and dismissing the child. Yes, the world would be a nice place if we weren't put into 'boxes', but some people, including children feel having a label isn't actually a bad thing. Makes them feel more comfortable about who they are. Only time will tell I guess.

Em, even the "experts" think it's very likely that he's not trans. From the link:

"Experts insist that they want to wait until Joseph's hormones develop by the time he is 11-years-old to see if his decision is a lasting choice."

Selling your child's life to the DM in this way is reprehensible. Way to leave options open. I'd say it's she who is ignorant of the facts.

This is a dark time for kids who don't fit the increasingly rigid gender boxes.