To think none of these things are "girly"?

[AlltheWhile]

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3132633/Proud-mother-backs-brave-transgender-9-year-old-son-prepares-school-dressed-girl-wearing-blonde-wig.html?ito=social-facebook article here]

Nail polish has been around for thousands of years, it's only relatively recently become a thing that is seen as female.

Disney princesses for fucks sake. There were not even a thing a hundred years ago. Those women were all still women.

I really don't want to start another transgender debate, what adults do is none of my business, but I do think as a society we need to address the way see gender and children. Unless I am missing it this boy has at no point said he wants breasts or a period or anything that women do actually have.

He likes the fashion and things that are seen as girly and doesn't like sodding football. Neither does most of America. Actually soccer is more of a girl's sport in the states. Maybe all American's are transgender?

Isn't it possible that by making her 9 year old's story public and trying to be so 'right on' that these parents are actually rigidly adhering to a gender binary that says no girl would ever play football and no boy would ever wear a dress? And forcing him to follow a path he might not feel like he can go back on in a few years time?

Should we not just be saying, "yes, ds that is a very nice dress, and here are some glittery shoes to match, but can you please just go tidy your room". And getting the fuck on with it without pigeonholing children?

*(And I'm totally ignoring the dresses, jewelry, tights and high heels worn in the past by men when they were considered male fashion)

"I would rather there be more acceptance of trans even if it keeps the girly/boyish idea going a bit longer."

"So a small minority just have to suffer, and pretend just to be a 'modern child' because being trans doesn't fit into the feminist agenda. Unless I'm misunderstanding this entire, quite ignorant thread."

[huh?]

I don't think anyone should have to suffer. I certainly don't think we should ignore the majority of children who don't choose to transition if left to their own devices so as to save the feeling of a very small minority of adults.

Transgederism is more prevalent in societies that have a stronger gender divide. This won't help children.

I teach in a mixed gender sixth form. It's not unusual for the boys to use nail varnish and sometimes even hair bands. I think the current generation is more relaxed about some of this stuff than we were.

True transgenderism is in a minority, but I fear many a young child/adult would be put off even considering themselves trans with attitudes such as the ones on this thread. Questioning gender is a unique situation, and dissmissing it at a young age because 'you have no idea who or what you are yet' is a shocking level of ignorance. Rather than letting kids question themselves, you'd rather them be some gender neutral entity until they reach puberty. Absolutely unbelievable, and the worst thing is, it's a general agreement on this thread. I'm suprised, really did think this place was far more open minded. Obviously I was wrong.

It's the labeling of things/ trends/ clothes/ fashions as male or female that causes the angst if you don't fit in, really. Boys don't magically grow out of wearing nail polish or liking Elsa - they have it policed out of them by a raised eyebrow or a 'not now darling, you'll get teased at school'. Kids learn what is right and wrong, and the overwhelming message is stick to the rules.

Absolutely. Back in the day nailpolish/tights/ make up/fake moles/heels/furs were all de rigueur for a fashionable man of status. It's gone out of style so they can't wear it anymore. Dh loves shiny shit, he is an utter magpie. I'm sure if he was a woman he'd be decked out and vajjazzled.

I think things have gone full circle with transgenderism MrsGently Most people used to be very open minded and pro trans. I was myself. But now things are swinging back the other way as people realise what it means for the rest of society. I now actually think it's quite narrow thinking to be very pro trans. Certainly for children.

mrsgently "shocking" really? I am genuinely concerned that we have parents today who are being told to pump their children full of shit to stop their body doing what it should do. I feel like that's experimenting on children. Children have strong ideas on many things, many of those change. Why would this be different?

mrsgently why does transgenderism in children so often (in every case I have heard of) go hand in hand with comments about the childns' predilection for make up bras and playing 'girly games'?

I know adults make the point that to be accepted as women they need to look the part. But does a two year old feel that way? Are they not just doing what they enjoy and adults are reading in to the behaviour?

*child's(obviously)

It's not as easy as just saying 'My son is a girl, get the pills and a wig'. There is a LOT of psychological counseling before even a diagnosis is made. However, once all parties are certain, why on eath shouldn't that 'boy' be given hormones, before puberty hits? As a woman, how would you feel if your voice suddenly broke, your facial features widened and people refered to you as 'him' by accident? It's of the same vain as a 12 year old saying 'I'm gay, I've always known it' and the parents responding, 'don't be silly, you might like boys, but statistically you'll probably end up in a straight relationship, you just don't know yourself yet. Now go play with Princess Elsa'.

Is it statistically likely that a child who thinks he is gay will then turn straight? I don't think it is. So it doesn't make sense to say that.

Women and men (born women and men) frequently don't look the way society would like them to. Their breasts don't get big. I stayed totally flat until I had children. Even now there isn't much there. I wanted breasts I looked totally androgynous on top of that I was nearly 6ft as a teenager. I had a very tall mother and it was incredibly likely that was going to happen. My PCOS has left me fairly hairy too. Should my parents have given me hormone therapy so I matched society's ideas of a woman?

Dd is the spit of me so far..maybe I should start the hormones and the breast implants now.

I know it's difficult to separate a child's 'whims', but I also believe that a child who believes they are in the wrong body will truly let you know. A parent may 'play along' with an idea, maybe the child will drop it, perhaps not. But actively discouraging it is a problem, and may breed discrimination regardless. Ultimately, I believe a child will know by early onset of puberty if they are truly unhappy with their 'natural gender'. It's completely unfair to totally dismiss the issue because they are young.

It's of the same vain as a 12 year old saying 'I'm gay, I've always known it' and the parents responding, 'don't be silly, you might like boys, but statistically you'll probably end up in a straight relationship, you just don't know yourself yet. Now go play with Princess Elsa'. I think it's not. i think it's the same as the parents saying, "that's nice dear, you can be with whomever you want".

A 3 yo at DD's play date yesterday said, 'when I grow up into a boy" and her DM said, "you're a girl honey and will grow up into a woman". Should she have assumed that the child was trans or should she assume that it was because the boys had monster trucks and DD's friend wanted one?

No, statistically there are more straight than gay people. I was using that example as a show of how damaging/ignorant dismissive behaviour can be.

It's not the same at all! If a 12 year old says they're gay and their parents support them and the child identifies as gay for a few years then changes their mind - so what? No harm done. Sexuality is on a spectrum anyway. Nothing is irreversible.
Once you've started hormones, you've messed yourself up for good if you later decide that's not the way you want to be.

I wasn't making the point that statistically there are more people in the world who aren't trans...

Once you've put your 9 year old son in the national press, complete with photos of him in a dress and wearing a long blonde wig when it's not for the purpose of advertising the school's next drama event you've messed him up without needing to put him on hormone treatment.

You know what, it probably is easier just to say 'they are kids, don't box them in, can't take it all seriously at that age'.

I really do believe there's an issue accepting transgender people though, even if you truly do not mean to be a prejudice person. It's far easier just to say they're 'gender neutral', because society makes very difficult to go beyond that. Hell, I wouldn't wish it on my own kid, it is one difficult journey to go on. And it never ends. Once your trans, you're always going to be trans. Maybe that's why it's so difficult to accept? Maybe that's why parents would rather their children be anything but, even if they do say publicly 'well of course I'd support them, if they actually were, but I'll still make a million excuses first to why they are not'.

MrsG, I'm not sure that 'dismissing' is what is happening across the board. I think overall people are advocating for the right of the child to be whoever they want to be - without the first impulse being to inspect the child for gender-approved behaviours, find it wanting, and instantly assume trans (ie Other).

It's the demarcation of lines between male and female that I object to - not anyone who identifies as transgender, whatever their age. Reinforcing the gender lines to make it easier for people to transition is hilariously catch-22. I can barely untangle the thought processes for the social tragedy of it. Sadly, it is exactly the sort of thinking that has had to been enacted in both medicine and law to ensure the parity of treatment. It is breathtakingly tragic and yet notionally sensible to protect the vulnerable in equal measure.

(That's another thing that pisses me off - trans, ergo vulnerable. I successfully circumvented an ethics committee arguing that point. What makes you vulnerable is the policing of wider society, not your innate position. It is society that needs to be addressed, not the individual concerned.)

Maybe that's why parents would rather their children be anything but, even if they do say publicly 'well of course I'd support them, if they actually were, but I'll still make a million excuses first to why they are not'.

Do you think there is less of stigma to be a very butch lesbian woman than there is to be a FTM transman? I don't think there is at all. I think if anything it is obvious what the butch lesbian woman is and therefore she will always get more shit than the transman who might pass as a man.

SO if a parent is fine with saying "I have a daughter who is a lesbian and traditionally what people would call 'butch'. Why is that easier than saying I have a trans child?

I think we can say that we need to accept all people and still question the effects on the mental and physical health children who wish to transition. Genuine question if you had a daughter who not what people would consider conventionally pretty. Ugly by society's standards. Would you allow to take tablets to grow her eyelashes, and get breast implants, nose jobs etc? I wouldn't it comes down to that for me.

I've seen my friend transition from lesbian to ftm trans. Believe me, he has a far more difficult time as a trans male. He'd rather pass for male, but for his own safety has to act 'Butch lesbian' in some situations. Male 'privilege' does not extend to him. Even his own parents basically disowned him after he came out male, even after being supportive of their gay daughter. His story is sadly too familiar, it's honestly not that unusual. I do understand the want to make sure we are not confusing trans with just 'kids being kids', but I also hate the idea of another young trans voice being lost, just because it's preferable to be fluid than one identity.

I don't understand how breaking down gender stereotypes could possibly be a bad thing for anyone, trans or not? Surely children who know they are trans would be happier if they lived in a world where they were free to choose any style of clothes they wanted, any toys/games/interests at all? I know it will be a while yet before we're there, but I honestly can't see why trans people wouldn't want this. What am I missing?

The 'accept yourself' argument doesn't apply if you are trans. It's not like 'being an ugly girl, take her down the salon' it's looking in the mirror and despising the person looking back at you. You wouldn't tell someone with other psychological issues just to 'see how it goes, you may feel different soon', not even a young person.

80% of "transgender" children grow up to not be trans providing that they've been allowed to go through their natal puberty unimpeded. There's no way of knowing which children will grow out of it so for every child that would have grown up to be trans that you medically sterilise as minors, you are sterilising another four children unnecessarily.

It's not like 'being an ugly girl, take her down the salon' it's looking in the mirror and despising the person looking back at you.

That's the unfortunate norm for a lot of children and teenagers. Especially teenage girls.