Nazi memorabilia

[Marymaymay]

Went to local car boot this weekend, man had a stall bedecked with a huge Nazi swastika/SS flag, selling mainly Nazi memorabilia. As a 3rd generation Jewish immigrant family, most of whom perished in the war, I was shocked and saddened by this. Someone wrote words to this effect on a local gossip site and over 60 people have replied - the majority basically calling the OP a dickhead, that the war is over, people fought for freedom of expression so get over it. Was really surprised by this response. I can understand that I might be more sensitive than most on this topic but can't believe that most people think selling this stuff is ok...if there was an ISIS flag for sale the same people would be going beserk! So AIBU?

I'd have found it distasteful to say the least.

And I'm sorry if I'm lowering the tone but I can't help remembering the episode of Father Ted that features the priest who collects shedloads of Nazi memorabilia, and Ted's remark, "We all get more right-wing with age."

when you start making laws about what flags can and can't be sold, well that's exactly the kind of thing the bloody Nazis believed in, and what people died fighting against!

Bullshit. Nazi ideology had nothing to do with what flags can and can't be sold and the reasons for going to war were not remotely connected to disliking restrictions on sales of goods. I am sure you know some of what Nazi ideology was actually about and the actual rationale for war was, so making a ridiculous 'trying to prevent a market in Nazi memorabilia makes you a Nazi... People died fighting the Nazis so that decades later others could financially profit from the fetishisation of Nazi symbols' argument is as lazy and dishonest as it is offensive.

Oh the irony!

Look, I've got no time for Nazis, Nazi paraphernalia or any other such mindless tat, but when you start making laws about what flags can and can't be sold, well that's exactly the kind of thing the bloody Nazis believed in, and what people died fighting against!
Seriously? You believe this nonsense?

It seems many UK auction houses won't sell them, either, but there appears to be no law against it, which is unfortunate to say the least.

On my mother's side I have relatives who were in camps.

Most of the big auction houses have pulled out of doing Nazi artefacts I think - because they are taking care of their image/brand.

But recently I went to an auction house and there was a portfolio of pictures of Hitler. I found them quite interesting.

Lots of people at auctions buy guns, so I suppose there are lots of kinds of collecting that make me slightly queasy.

I don't want to make history go away. It's probably better to remember history in the right sort of way.

I've bought prints by an artist which are a record of his time in the Ghetto and in camps. Is that okay? Or should they be destroyed too?

There's a brief article here.

www.dw.de/the-right-approach-to-nazi-memorabilia/a-17573542

I think I would be more concerned about educating the young about racism, combating Islamophobia, the rise of UKIP and the publicity given to them by the BBC etc, the sorts of articles that appear in the Daily Mail. Far more widespread and pernicious.

If some weird old blokes make a few quid out of carbooting old military stuff it doesn't bother me as much. (It's not as if they are denying the Holocaust happened.)

WWII is very interesting, as is historical memorabilia, and lest people forget, BRITISH people do not have anything to feel guilty about when it comes to the Nazis, it is taking an interest in a vanquished foe, an evil we helped defeat.

Yes there are loonies who think they are nazis, but having an interest does not imply sympathy. If you are a collector of historical memorabilia, I would think that out of WWII some of the German stuff would be incredibly interesting.

Plenty of anti-Semitism in 1930s Britain. Churchill interned Jewish refugees - alongside Nazi sympathisers - as enemy aliens. Collaboration in the Channel Islands. Failure to bomb train lines that led to death camps, even though the Government was told what happened there. Punitive bombing of Dresden.

Perhaps it's not a simple opposition between squeaky clean Britain and 'the others.'?

I don't think the man on the street in the UK gave a crap about the Jews, merely that those who fought them, do not share any of the burden of the crimes of the Nazis.

If anything, the enemies of the Nazis are free to use their symbols and paraphernalia as they wish.

No. British people should not have the right to use Nazi symbols and paraphernalia 'as they wish' just because they happen to be born in a country that was part of the Allied nations.

"Happen to be born in"? Perhaps you feel no connection to the men and women who fought against them. I feel differently, having known and loved people who went through hell to beat them for us all, and having never known other family members who gave their lives for the same.

Historical artifacts are things of interest. An interest in them does not imply a love of the terrible things they did on its own, and there is nothing about being British, even patriotically British, that implies one should shy away from an interest in their paraphernalia. Even though attitudes in those days were different to those now, the nazis were still (and are if they attempt to re-emerge) our worst enemies.

Nazi ideology had nothing to do with what flags can and can't be sold.

Er, yes it did. The Nazis had very strict controls on all cultural materials and were fond of destroying books and art. Jewish people were banned from owning, buying or displaying the Swastika flag. They banned other ideologies and associated symbols such as communist ones.

But you did just happen to be born in the UK. And if you were born post WWII you can't claim their glory as yours. You can be proud of course but you can't claim to have played a part. Therefore you have no right to do with Nazi memorabilia as you wish.

Historical artifacts are things of interest. An interest in them does not imply a love of the terrible things they did on its own

No one said otherwise. But it's quite likely that someone who solely collects Nazi artifacts or sets up a Nazi stall at a car boot stall has less than savoury political views.

"But you did just happen to be born in the UK. And if you were born post WWII you can't claim their glory as yours. You can be proud of course but you can't claim to have played a part. Therefore you have no right to do with Nazi memorabilia as you wish."

I think you misunderstand - I am not claiming anyone's glory. My existence and my freedom are things my family members were fighting for as explicitly related by them to me, and things they were explicitly told by their government and those in command they were fighting for, so no, Both my birth and my freedom have been suffered to exist by them and their fight, and neither is an unrelated accident.

It is not stolen valour, it is simply saying we owe our civilization's survival (such as it is) to that fight against the nazis, so there should be no shame implied by taking an interest in them.

"But it's quite likely that someone who solely collects Nazi artifacts or sets up a Nazi stall at a car boot stall has less than savoury political views."

It's possible, but should not be assumed. Some people are just very interested in history, and some particular faction.

I have a keen interest in the ancient civilization of Carthage, for instance, and would have and trade in memorabilia of it if I could, but in no way does that mean I wish to sacrifice babies!

The sight would've unnerved me a lot, and I'm not even Jewish. We actually have a piece of Nazi memorabilia in the family, at my mum and dad's. It's an SS belt my grandad removed from the owner. I think he might've just dispatched him to meet his maker at the time, I'm not sure. But my dad said my grandad had mentioned a few times that Allied soldiers coming across surrendering SS soldiers sometimes just shot them (I am neither justifying nor condemning this, it took place in a context I can't possibly understand, just saying I have heard that it happened). Anyway, none of us would ever want to sell it not just because it's a piece of family history but also we'd be afraid of it ending up in someone's Nazi shrine or something. If we gave it away it would be to a museum or university or some other institution with educational and cultural purpose. I would feel very weird about someone who was selling lots of Nazi stuff at a carboot.

I find WW2 history utterly fascinating, have spent many a day at the Imperial War Museum, Bovington Tank Museum, RAF Hendon and Duxford. I have an extensive book collection on the period and do seem to have a geeky knowledge of uniforms, battles, equipment, politics of the time and some insight of the key people who fought on both sides. I have been to a quite a few markets and car boot sales and there is always some chap selling ex-army surplus stuff, be it jerry cans, belts of ammo, old gas masks and various insignia, medals and photos and I always find myself gravitating towards these places, most of the stuff is cheap replica items but it still interesting. Have to confess that I have never seen an exclusively Nazi/Third Reich only stall and the truth is I would still be interested in having a flick through their stuff, not because I am a neo Nazi or Third Reich sympathizer or run around at weekends dressed as a Waffen SS Officer, but just because they are historical artifacts from a period that greatly interests me.

That said I think it is probably more appropriate to sell this stuff at specially organised militaria fairs rather than in some field next to a box of second hand Frozen DVDs

I recently went to a museum which had only a tiny section of artefacts from the camps. I was with my 9yo and his best friend - to see the impact on them, to see the reaction when they linked that display with what they'd learned in school and relate it to real people, really affected me.

At the same time, I had been talking with a woman who had wanted to tell her family story of the Holocaust and what her relatives had experienced. She'd contacted me - I'm a ghost writer - and was so committed to doing it, but, after talking it through with other people realised that so many of them were terrified that Nazi sympathisers would use her story as something they would get perverse enjoyment from. How appalling is that? People are still having their lives, their stories, stolen from them, and there are idiots out there who fight for their right to do that. It's shameful.

"Seriously? You believe this nonsense?"

It actually isn't nonsense, at all.

Mitzy

'But it's quite likely that someone who solely collects Nazi artifacts or sets up a Nazi stall at a car boot stall has less than savoury political views.'

I would say it has very little to do with the stall holders political views and everything to do with the fact that WW2/Third Reich memorabilia can fetch enormous prices from collectors.

That said I think it is probably more appropriate to sell this stuff at specially organised militaria fairs rather than in some field next to a box of second hand Frozen DVDs

That's it I think Pan. It's all about context. There are people alive today who suffered under the Nazis and it's also a symbol that's still very much in use by extreme right wing groups and individuals. A car boot stall is not the proper setting for this type of sale.

If you had some valuable Nazi stuff and you were looking to get a good price for it, you probably wouldn't be flogging it at a car boot though? I'd have thought you would want to pitch it to as many interested parties as possible, maybe through a specialist website or something like that. Or an auction, though obviously there's the fees.