MrsNextDoor
OP re needing naps...I went by the "If they fall asleep then they need a nap" idea.
Yawning and eye rubbing is one thing...doesn't mean they have to have a nap. THey perk up and get a second wind soon enough and if they're desperate then they just drop off! No harm done to have a nap on the sofa or buggy.
I think all children are different and each parent learns to 'read' their own child. I know that with both of mine, eye rubbing and yawning was always the last sign of tiredness, not the first. The eye rub involves such a slow blink it makes me laugh. Its so obvious. But yes, there comes a time when they fight it, but that doesn't always mean they know best. At least, it doesn't for my children, perhaps it does for yours. This is also coming from a parent who believes in giving choice, and has tentatively walked down the path of being child-led, but it didn't always work out with regard to sleep.
As for sleep breeding sleep....it's not is it? He's not going to sleep easily anyway.
I think it does because once he's asleep he will go through the whole night. It has always seemed to be that the later they go to bed, or the least sleep taken during the day, results in less sleep taken at night. Odd but true. I believe I vaguely recall reading about that after I discovered it for myself, and though "wow, that explains it then."
You could try a light show thing on his ceiling?
Ya know, that might just work. He's a great one for being distracted. If I take his mind of his separation anxiety, he might revert to a great settler.
PomeralLights
Let's say it takes 30mins to get him to sleep.
You drop the nap, it still takes 30mins to get him to sleep. All you've achieved is a grumpy toddler in the afternoon.
Dropping the nap hasn't actually achieved anything and has made your day a hell of a lot worse. Why do it? I think that is what OP is saying. I get your point about exhaustion leading to sleep but for some kids overtiredness also plays a part, right?
Yes, you're bang on. The problem isn't the overall need for sleep, but the clinginess which stops the sleep taking place without the comfort of parent's present.
I'm afraid I don't have any advice OP, I'm a hippy co-sleeping type so you'd have no time for my opinions just don't see why you're getting such a hard time over the nap!
I think people are trying to help in the best way they know, which is usually based on their own experiences as a parent. Of course all parent's have different children and therefore different experiences, but I can see how hard it can be to accept that someone else might not find your successes will be theirs too.
I like the idea of co-sleeping but I couldn't do it for a lot of reasons, and since I have never started it, I suppose it would be unwise to do it now. The bed isn't big enough for 4!
PrincessTheresaofLiechtenstein
Gradual withdrawal was always what I did when mine went through panicking/ separation anxiety stages. It took a few nights each time but I didn't feel there was any option, since any attempt to enforce "boundaries" just led to more and more hysterical crying.
Yes, that has been our experience too. It's quite bewildering to a parent who believes in clear boundaries and strict regimens, but then find that it makes the problem even worse!
NotAnArtist
OP, I don't post very often, but I'm a sleep trainer and I think your plan to sit on the stairs and gradually go down a step or two at a time is a brilliant one. It doesn't sound like he's not sleeping because he's not tired, so I don't think the nap is the problem, it just sounds like he doesn't want to be left alone, and gradual retreat is the perfect sleep training method in this situation.
You're quite right not to bring the dummies back, BTW!
Thanks, I'm glad you posted. Your post made me cry actually, not an easy feat! But your words that "it sounds like he doesn't want to be left alone" really touched me. I think I have carried the burden of instinctively knowing this for a few weeks now, and have desperately tried to tread water or fight fires, or whatever best describes a person using every resource available while living under the tension that one little move the wrong way makes the whole house of cards collapse. I also appreciate your validation re" staying strong with the dummies. DH and his family have returned to this 'answer' so many times, and each time from the "seems cruel not to" point of view.
If you want to PM me at any point, feel free, I'm always happy to help where I can, and I'm happy to look at his daily routine and make suggestions that might make bedtime go more smoothly!
Thanks, I will.
DougalTheCheshireCat
Interesting thread OP, with the full range of opinions. I think you need to trust your instincts, and take them as your guide of what to do.
You don't think its the daytime nap (you're probably right). You are usually consistent and its worked well, but lately things have changed. You think your DC's reaction is one of genuine fear / distress (you're probably right) and you're instinct is to respond appropriately (you're probably right).
But you're worried that will create bad habits/ take too long. And your DH is being unsupportive.
Thank you for all your clear understanding of the situation. It's a relief when someone completely sees it for what it is.
You know if your child is truly distressed, or merely protesting. I certainly do. You know that far better than people on the internet. So if you sense that they are distressed and afraid and need your comfort, give it. Sometime soon, they either won't need it any more, or they'll start protesting (you'll know) and then a harder line will be more appropriate.
That was exactly my thought too. I read him all the time, and at first I assumed he must be playing silly buggers, which was why i did CIO for a short while. It soon became glaringly obvious that this was not just being naughty, but the child is honestly struggling to be alone at the moment, and is terrified if he thinks he's by himself.
You've mentioned that they are also distressed in the day, so I'd work on that too. have you looked at Aha Parenting? a great site, I'm sure it has a few blog posts on separation anxiety, what it's about and how to reassure. For example, I think I read there that games like peek a boo are all about your child safely exploring the idea of you going away and coming back.
I will try and look at that site today. Any good tips for day or nighttime clinginess will be gratefully received.
For a few days, could you be very reassuring to your child, and leave them alone as little as possible? And or, explain when you are going out of the room that you will be back, and call and chat to them as you go to loo / to get something from upstairs etc, so they can hear you and know you are still there? It sounds like maybe your DC is starting ot understand more the concept of leaving: so use that - explain that you are leaving, and that you'll be back. Quite early my DD grasped the difference between 'See you in a minute' (I'm going to the loo) and 'See you later' (I'm going to work, see you tonight).
My instinct is telling me strongly that this is something I need to do. I remember when I studied a little bit of psychology, a child development psychologist said that if a child is given as much access to the mother as they need to feel safe, they feel empowered to leave the mother to explore the world. But if a clingy child is ripped away from the support they need, it makes them less secure. So I would want to be his rock to enable him to find his own strength, if that makes sense.
It might be worth getting the book Peaceful Parents, Happy Kids (by the women who runs the Ahaparenting site). it is the best parenting book I have, and my DH likes it too. It is much better organised than most parenting books (easy to dip in and out of, no long personal stories) and is fully of well written explainations for what is going on in any given situation, as well as strategies for how to approach them.
I will take a look, thank you.
This has got super long but really what I wanted to say is:
SkodaLabia
Can you swap the order at bedtime so it goes cuddle then story? So he knows that once the book is finished it's a goodnight kiss and lights out?
I could. Its just that up until now, he's always automatically gone into a deep neck snuggle as the last page of the book is turned. Then, when HE has had enough cuddling, he reached out for the cot and I put him him. There are no lights out at the moment because of the summer light.
RumbleMum
I think in this case you need to trust your instincts about needing the gentler route of gradual withdrawal. You know your child best, and IMO if you think DS is genuinely distressed then you just need to stick with your current approach for a bit.
That's what I think too. I certainly know CC is out of the running for this episode.
Naps were never the issue for us, but you're obviously reading the cues and seeing the outcome of shorter/no naps, so I think it's definitely worth trying this approach before you start messing around with naps (though having them as early in the day as possible wouldn't do any harm, I'm sure).
I know what you mean, it seems almost counter-intuitive. But, being desperate, I will consider any option.
Denimwithdenim00
Sure you have thought about this op but could it be something in his room that is scaring him?
He's a great one for pointing at anything worrying him, so I'd have hoped that's what he'd do. But I also had put him in the travel cot in his older sibling's room, to see if there would be any comfort from another person in the same room. It didn't work, which tells me that it's not the room per se, its the parent leaving that's the problem.
minibmw2010
Sorry if this has been mentioned, but would a soft night light help?
I mentioned earlier that it crossed my mind, as I have nightlights dotted around the place. But at the moment it's completely light when he goes to bed, and by the time it gets dark he's been asleep for quite a long time.
WindMeUpAndLetMeGo
How did last night go Spring?
Last night DH offered to sit in the room. I was suspicious he'd read a certain MN thread! But it was after he'd spoken to his family about it. He said a day away had made him feel better about things, and he sat there for what felt like 20-30 minutes (it actually as 40 minutes!). He didn't talk to our 2 year old, but surfed on his phone and caught up on emails, and apparently DS just fidgeted and eventually settled down completely.