Should SIL be forced to bring DD to graveyard?

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Posting on behalf of my SIL, my DH's brother's wife. When BIL was a toddler and DH wasn't born PIL had a stillborn DS and of course after he was buried they visited his grave with BIL and then DH, this tradition has continued until the present day. SIL has just had her first DD and PIL want her and the baby to start coming up to visit the grave with them, BIL and DH.

The problem is SIL doesn't feel comfortable bringing her DD. her reasons are that she doesn't feel comfortable enmeshing her DD in this tradition as she feels it is spreading and sharing the grieving process to a baby and isn't needed. She doesn't mind if DD is told about her uncle or anything else, she's just not comfortable with the tradition itself for children. BIL wants to bring his DD to please his PILs as he doesn't really care personally if his DD is brought so SIL feels backed into a corner and feels like she is being made to feel guilty.

Is she BU?

vvega, you misunderstand me. It's absolutely fine for grieving parents (or anyone grievng a loved one) to do whatever they feel the need to do, to help them cope, for as long as they want. I know for sure that you never forget. The unhealthy element, IMHO, is when their need to remember becomes a huge deal that they insit on everyone else taking part in as a set-in-stone ritual - their feelings on the matter don't trump everyone elses just because they have lost a baby. That is not on, and they should not be piling guilt on anyone who does not want to participate, whatever their reasons. By all means make DIL feel she is welcome to join in if she wants even though she is not a blood relative. But to insist? Selfish in the extreme.

I heard a lovely story from a hospital chaplain recently - the hospital do a memorial service every year for lost babies. We went the first year after DD died, we lit a candle and were given a white rose. It was lovely. This year, there was an elderly couple there. He asked if they were there to remember a grandchild. No they said, their baby who was stillborn 50 years ago. Baby taken away from them, not allowed to hold or see it. They had never been able to grieve properly till a neighbour told them about this service. It really helped them.

I don't think she should.
I also think it's odd that there is any expectation for your SiL or her dd to attend.
Personally, I think it's odd that even your dh and BiL are expected to go, as it's not like this is a person they ever had a relationship with - fair enough, if parents were old and needed someone to take them, but, in their own right, I think it's a strange thing to do.

I don't know what to say to this as I have mixed views. As someone whose DD died, I have taken my other children to her bench and tree (we don't have a grave). From birth they have known death. DD1 is DD2s twin, (it was DD1 that died). It is normal to them. We picnic there (it's in a memorial forest) and they enjoy going. It's not morbid. I suppose that I am saying that many of us don't have the luxury of keeping our children away from upset adults and having to deal with baby loss. I truly wish I did not walk this path but I do. What choice do I have? Some of the posts make me feel rather judged in terms of taking my children along as and when we visit.

On the other hand, I would not expect someone else more removed to join the ceremony. Others in my family have not and I agree that I cannot impose my wishes on someone else.

Sat on a fence, sorry.

vvega, that's a very unpleasant post.

Your SIL is not being unreasonable.

It's good that your DH and BIL will support their parents and visit the grave, but I don't think the younger family members need to come along.

I say this as someone who has been through this loss.

I have a young DS now, and sometimes he comes to visit the grave with us, sometimes he doesn't. We don't make a big deal out of it, or keep it a secret. I'll always be honest with him about our losses when he asks, but I'm always concerned that he might one day think he is a replacement or comes in second best.

Which is absolutely not the case. We will always love and grieve for the children we lost but always be absolutely grateful and thankful that the child we have with us is DS. He's not a replacement, never second best.

I can't imagine that we will ever stop visiting our children's grave but I'd never force DS or his future partner and children to come along with us. We go for special occasions, or as and when we feel we want to. But it would be wrong to expect other people to come with us.

No, vvega, that's you projecting and as it's been pointed out in previous posts it doesn't always have a positive affect on children either but hey lets just risk it because it will make everyone else feel better even though the children have had no part in this. Don't presume to know mine or SILs reasons because of experinces or opinions you might have. My DH doesn't want our children involved and neither do I because we feel uncomfortable exposing our children to that sort of grief, my DH has said himself bringing them is completely pointless since they're not siblings. My SIL doesn't want to risk her child becoming upset and why should she? We have both went with PILs before the DC and offered to come after without them but that isn't what PILs want, they won't accept a meal out with DCs after, they will accept nothing less than the children being dragged there too.

thewomaninwhite it sounds like you have made the experience of remembering your lost DC (especially poignant when there is a surviving twin, I always think) a 'good' family experience. NOt too solemn, not at all distresing for the DC.

You would not insist, when they are adults, that they and their spouses and own DC come along too. That is the difference.

I think it depends on your relationship with the parents and how they've asked. Is it an 'it would mean a lot to us' ask rather than a demand? How often do pil see their grandchildren? I do feel if relationships are strong in the family you guys could all do this one thing once a year.

Think less about the fact that you or DC don't know the baby bil, but that you want to support a mother who had lost a child.

I've lost a baby. I'd be very upset if a family member reacted like you and your sil to be honest.

BIL shouldn't be trying to make SIL go just because he can't/won't say no to his parents.

Does she usually go?

Even if she does, I would have thought that having a newborn would exempt her!

If BIL wanted his wife there for support, that would be something.

Definitely cultural differences here. Am irish, and can't conceive how visiting a family grave once a year is anything but a nice family thing to do. I also can't imagine refusing to visit a family grave once a year. But different traditions I guess.

thewoman, I'm sorry for your loss I really am and your experience sounds better than the ones we have had, MIL gets understandably upset and it is not always a pleasant experience but we were fine with it until I was told I had to bring the DC. DH was never comfortable with this and neither is SIL so in a way I suppose they have a choice not to bring the DC. We've compromised with a meal out with the DC after but nothing will be accepted.

Hygge, you've summed it up perfectly in the sense that no one should be forced or expected to go and it's lovely that you don't expect it. Though my DH said it is different for him and his brother as they are siblings but the DGC are just that, grandchildren and shouldn't be expected to go.

Regardless of whether they decide to take their DD in future, this is a tiny baby we are talking about! SIL should not be expected to travel that far so soon after birth, nor should her baby be apart from her for that long if BIL wanted to take the baby without her.

I also don't feel that anyone should be forced into a ritual like this. We all have different feelings about death and grief and it is not fair to make anyone especially uncomfortable. The DD may wish to go of her own accord when older, or she may want to some years but not others.

I also feel that you can remember people without visiting the gravestone. My mother's brother died before we were born but he was always talked about in our house, we were shown pictures and told all the stories. I don't think he even has a plaque anywhere (he was cremated). I have never visited the plaques for my grandparents, whose funerals I couldn't attend (I was in Australia and DM told me not to make the trip back).

thewoman I think that sounds lovely and it good for the dc to understand how we love and remember people who have died and think of them often.

We visit graves and the crematorium at Christmas and sometimes anniversaries and usually take my son who is 8. When he was a baby it was for our dads (taking out mums). Now it is for all of them so obviously he knew his grandmas. It is a good way to introduce and think about family members and introduced the concept of death without a big scary announcement. No harm in keeping up the tradition. I would do it for PIL. I really can't see the harm. It shouldn't necessarily be expected though of SIL and this year if she didn't feel up to it with baby being so little that should be accepted. I like the idea of a family meal on that day to remember. Traditions can evolve.

I lost my baby at 5 months. We keep his ashes on a shelf in the lounge (no grave), and every year on what would've been his birthday we buy him a little cookie and put a glass of milk out for him (food offerings - my husband is Japanese and this is part of the cultural tradition). We take a moment to allow ourselves to revisit the pain and the loss and to think about him in general.
I plan on introducing the kids to this little ritual when they are older, because I too was brought up not to see death as taboo and don't want them to either. HOWEVER - I would never, EVER force anyone else to do something like this, as I am fully aware not everyone would be comfortable with it, let alone MAKING them take their child along too. If my kids end up not liking the tradition for whatever reason, I wouldn't force them to do it either. Your SIL is NBU in my opinion.

OP, don't worry about not putting 'triggering' in your title. The title is already very clear. If someone wanted to avoid the thread they could have.

I wouldn't want to go to,the grave if I was the SIL. It would feel wrong and 'morbid' for me but that is NOT a judgement on what other people or posters do. There is no rule book governing this type of thing. What's right for one family isn't right for another.

I had to go every week to the grave of my ten year old sister from the age of eight, and I remember it being really upsetting and v sad. Even had to go on Christmas day! I suppose my mum and dad had no-one to look after me. Don't think I'd do it to my children.

I should say I wouldn't make the kids think of him in terms of pain or loss! I mean, I would tell them about him and how happy he made us, however briefly.

My sister died (as an adult, but in her 30s).
My dc had all met her, but my youngest was still a baby - only my eldest really remembers her. She gets mentioned in conversations sometimes - usually funny or happy memories, or sometimes if one of the dc does something like she did, or likes or doesn't like something she did. I've never 'expected' them to come to the graveyard though. They know she was my sister and that she died, and, at various times of their lives they've asked about gravestones and the like (I think all children do over time, go through a natural curiosity about death and ceremonies and rituals). At that point, I've said I will take them if they like. There is no 'expectation' they need to visit though - and this is someone they all met. To have to go to the grave of someone even their father had no relationship with is just too far removed and a strange thing to expect anyone to do - including the 2 DiLs.

genuine Q - what on earth would people like the OPs ILs do if a DGC was born on the anniversary of their loss? would they still expect that child to be made to attend the grave, on their birthday? would they find it disrespectful of their long dead baby, if the parents and child wanted to throw a birthday party on that date, to celebrate their living child? Or can that chidl never celebrate on its own birthday just because someone else died on that date long ago? What if that date was also the DILs parents wedding anniversary, or what if the date fell when the family wanted to book a holiday?

I am honestly shocked that anyone is so selfish they would insist about these things at all, just as much as the threads where people cant break away from routines that PIL have had with their unmarried adult DC (always having to see them on their birthday and xmas day) and the PIL wont then accept that when married (with another family to involve and visit, and children of their own) their traditions might have to give way to what other people want to do.

'very unpleasant' why?!

Have a read back through the thread and the posts from people who, like you, think the OP's SiL is BU.

Then see if you can detect any difference between the way they've posted and your last post.

and before anyone jumps in to defend OPs PIL, yes I do think they are selfish and trying to be controlling. They have shown how unreasonable they are by refusing to accept any compromise - that the sons visit the grave with them, and the DILs and children meet up later for a family meal.

For this year at least, your SIL and BIL should refuse as too much time in a car seat can be risky for babies.