Is she being unreasonable?

[squashandsqueeze]

A dear friend of mine has been separated a couple of years and his dd lives with ex wife. He has regular contact, they talk every day and she stays with him a couple of nights a week. They have a very good relationship.

He is originally from another country and his family all still live abroad. They have been unable to visit for a while now and unfortunately it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. He desperately wants to take his dd to see his family, get to know them, see where he grew up, learn about the country and the culture etc.

However, his ex is adamant that she will not allow him to take his dd abroad.

Is she allowed to do this? He is on her birth certificate, he pays regular maintenance, would do anything for his dd, tries his best to keep things amicable with the ex.

I can't help thinking that, as he's also her parent, he should have an equal say?? Is there anything he can do in this situation?

What am I reading? I'm reading a thread which seems to have taken a bizarre turn. Loads of women jumping to defend or excuse the mothers behaviour, when the information we have is the man is a decent father. I tell you what, if the roles were reversed then people would be outraged.

Also, jumping to the conclusion that someone will snatch their child without any reason to think that is just hysteria.

fairywings,
I completely agree with you ,and I an not islamaphobic either .
I am just cautious .

Sorry fairyfuckwings ,I didn't mean to censor your name .

If he has asked the mother and she has refused, he should take the issue to court for permission.

If she is saying he may not bring DD back, then the court would obviously be asking for some evidence of her concerns.

The court will look at what is in the best interest of the child and that includes seeing their extended family.

This works both ways, for mothers and fathers taking their child out of the country.

From what OP has said, this seems like a rare decent guy. If the tables were turned and a father was refusing to allow a mother permission, views would be different.

There is no reason the child would need their mother more than their father and that be a legitimate reason.

How do I know all this? Because my ex is being difficult about me taking my children on holiday.

twinkie no one is assuming he will snatch the child. Simply that could be a situation where it's reasonable to block you ex taking your child abroad.

IMHO anyone who lets their ex take a child out of the country, to a place where you can not get them back from is taking a huge risk. And I would not call anyone, man or woman, unreasonable for not wanting this to happen.

It's nothing to do with him being a man and therefore she must be right. It's to do with risk.

If someone was willing to marry and have a child with them, then the obviously trusted them at some point. Bar abuse or downright lies, there is no reason for someone to suddenly decide that someone they once loved would take their children to a foreign country and not return them, unless there is a specific reason. I just find this who thread very odd and unfair to OPs friend and potentially other men wanting to take their children on holiday.

I think you'd have to be very naive not to consider custody issues when your ex partner wants to take your child to visit country they were born in (hold a passport from) and their family still live in. It wouldn't matter if the parent was the father or mother of the child. The parent may also face pressure from their family to have the child stay longer.

If the mother is unwilling to let DD go, then perhaps she should go with them as a compromise.

If not, she risks OP's friend being very difficult should she want to take the child on holiday in the future.

I think you'd have to be very naive not to consider custody issues when your ex partner wants to take your child to visit country they were born in (hold a passport from) and their family still live in.

I find that a thoroughly cynical and depressing way of thinking.

Do we know the country? That makes all the difference. Depths of islamic state or Yemen with no rights to get the child back and I wouldn't allow it. Spain and yes perfectly okay.

There is literally no evidence that the OP is talking about a potentially dangerous country, people just like to assume the worst on here. In my opinion anyway.

Why is Spain safer? Dad could still run off there and hide away.

Just like he could pinch the kid and run off to Cornwall.

But sounds like he hasn't so far!

Some countries don't recognise the decisions of our courts, so the mother would have no legal recourse.

To be honest I think the OP reluctance to confirm whether or not the country is a member of The Hague Convention suggests it's not. Why wouldn't you just say otherwise.

She asked a question, in order for people to give an honest and informed answer they would need to know more.

The Father may well be a stand up bloke, the mother may well be being deliberately obstructive for no reason. But the flip side of that coin is she may well have good reasons to say no and the Father and friend may well be unable to see reasons for a rational objection.

What's the point in asking a question when you can't answer a very simple question to help the people you are asking advice from advise you

Twinkietwinkle

It is depressing but not as depressing as not having a child brought home. It's fact that it happens and it's not only hell for the other parent but for the child too.

Has anyone seen the film (based on a book I think) called 'not without my daughter'? Whenever certain countries are mentioned wrt women's rights re children I think of this film. Once dad has got the DD to his home country he will probably be pressured to stay even if that's not his original intention.

It's incredibly rare though! Like I said further up the thread, there are probably more bitchy mothers out there than there are dads who would snatch their children. I understand that it happens but it is ridiculous to jump to that conclusion.

Fucking hell, some people really need to get a grip and back off on the man bashing and distrust

I think you will find that an awful lot of women (and indeed, men) have reason to distrust when a relationship breaks down. Many of us have suffered an ex either not letting us see a child or refusing to return a child at a previously agreed time/place. It may not be on the scale of kidnapping across boarders, but fucking hell, have you ever had that experience? If not, try it, and then see how you feel.

Well, as others have said, she can block him taking their DD out of the country, he can also block his ExW taking their DD out of the country.

The country is relevant OP, because it might give the reasons why his ExW objects, and there could be ways to minimise her fears to get her to say "yes" and as it's unlikely he can force his own way, finding a way to get his exW is pretty much the only way to get her to agree unless he wants to spend a lot of time and money on a legal route that might not work, cause a lot of upset (and he chances of him getting the family court to agree with him to overrule his ExW's right to block overseas travel will also depend on the country!)

eg. if it's a country with poor facilities, agreeing to go but book into a good hotel (at least 4 star) rather than stay with family might swing it. similarly if it's a country with a high crime rate, staying in a Westernised hotel where the extended family join for a holiday might help lessen her fears. If there's no objection to the country itself or the particular region of the country, then finding out what the exW's problem with the travel is might help find a solution - including perhaps her coming along if it's a fear of her DD flying or being that far away from her.

Another thought - he might be the most honest and lovely bloke you know, but have you met his extended family? The exW might well have done so and not want her DD to stay with them.

It may be rare and in cases I know of the parents had doubts but were told they were being ridiculous or paranoid.

Whilst I agree it's not nice that decent people are viewed with suspicion for the parents who's children have duel nationalities it's a very real and scary possibility.

Peoples judgement can be clouded by bad break ups/divorces and their fears may be unjustified but for many in that moment, their fears are real and they only want to protect their children and themselves from that possibility. Irrational? Yes in most cases, not in others. We can't really say in this situation as we don't know the parents sides however, we would be more able to give a objective opinion on why the mother may be doing this if the OP answered a simple question that in no way would out the family in question.

There's a difference between 'jumping to that conclusion' and being aware of the possible risks. The child has still been on holiday with their father. They still have a good relationship. Her line in the sand appears to be that specific country. Maybe she is being unpleasant for the sake of it. Who knows. The fact that the OP has repeatedly refused to say if it's a country that is signed up to The Hague Convention (which is hardly identifying!) makes it more likely that the mother may have genuine concerns.

Again, you would have to be very naive not to consider issues of custody in this situation. It isn't about men it's about international custody law.

There are mothers who snatch their children out of the country as well, but the difference between mothers and fathers who do so is that generally the fathers who do remove them to countries with appalling women's rights so the chances of getting them back are reduced.

The fact that the mother has been previously happy for this child to spend weeks at a time with the father here in the UK would imply that there is a valid reason why she doesn't want him taking the child back to his home country. The fact that the op is refusing to say which country it is is IMO a very clear indication that she knows it's a country which could be judged as being an abduction risk.

It's also worth bearing in mind that as well as people who snatch children back to their own countries, it is not uncommon for women who marry men in certain countries find themselves with limited access in the event of a split while living in these countries, because in many countries custody of children is automatically awarded to the father.

It's naive to think that just because someone loved a man once he wouldn't skip the country with your children. There are lots of bastard men and bitch women out there, someone loved them all once..... even some of the abusive bastards being talked about on the relationships board.

And it's really not as "incredibly rare" as some like to think. It's common enough that there are organisations which exist purely to help parents get their children back who have been abducted to foreign countries...

Twinkletwinkle - as said, I know someone whose life was destroyed by this very thing happening. She didn't see her DD for 15 bloody years. Just because something is rare doesn't make it any less devastating for the person involved. Male or female.

I think this is an issue which is going to explode in the coming decades. For example, my DB is married to a Polish woman, Dsis a French guy, my best friend's DH is Colombian. All are lovely people, but there is a 'tension' there about what might happen to the kids on breakup which doesn't exist in a British-British (for generations) relationship. I'm always amazed by the fact that this isn't discussed more between couples.
I worry just as much for men. My Dfriend (man) is concerned because his wife has recently broken up with him and is considering moving back home - several hours plane flight away within the same country. He would effectively be left with only seeing his kids on high days and holidays. He is devastated but doesn't want to make it a bloody fight through the courts with her.

OP - I hope your friend finds a solution soon which will make all parties happy.

From the child's point of view.

My parents divorced when I was young, and my father returned to his country of origin (USA). The custody agreement stated that my sister and I spent every holiday with him, and his new wife. All of every holiday.

We had to drive to a mutual, neutral friends' house on the way home from the airport, and hand our passports over to them for safe keeping. At the time this seemed a massive faff, and I used to get very irritated with it; young, tired and stressed after a long flight unaccompanied, and annoyed at the implied lack of trust towards my father, with whom I had a better relationship than my mother minor understatement.

Looking back now, and knowing with adult eyes just what my father is really like, I can understand the concern.

He needs to go through the courts, and get the travel sanctioned by them. I say this with reluctance, no matter how much you think you really know him, you truly have no idea what he is really like. Really, you don't.