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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Is she being unreasonable?

112 replies

squashandsqueeze · 13/06/2015 15:11

A dear friend of mine has been separated a couple of years and his dd lives with ex wife. He has regular contact, they talk every day and she stays with him a couple of nights a week. They have a very good relationship.

He is originally from another country and his family all still live abroad. They have been unable to visit for a while now and unfortunately it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. He desperately wants to take his dd to see his family, get to know them, see where he grew up, learn about the country and the culture etc.

However, his ex is adamant that she will not allow him to take his dd abroad.

Is she allowed to do this? He is on her birth certificate, he pays regular maintenance, would do anything for his dd, tries his best to keep things amicable with the ex.

I can't help thinking that, as he's also her parent, he should have an equal say?? Is there anything he can do in this situation?

OP posts:

NRomanoff · 15/06/2015 07:28

clear no one is assuming. They are asking questions to try and answer the question the OP asked....'is she being unreasonable?'

She maybe be being unreasonable or she may not be. Depending on the circumstances

morelikeguidelines · 15/06/2015 09:06

Have rtft and agree more info in needed to say if she is u or not.

Of course it would be nice if the dd could get to know her family but it's easy to understand the mother's concerns particularly depending on which country it is.

Her first priority has to be to keep her child safe after all.

ClearEyesFullHearts · 15/06/2015 11:13

NRomanoff, some posters are assuming:

I'd feel the same as his ex to be honest. She'll be worried about him not bringing her back. Quite justifiably really.

fairyfuckwings · 15/06/2015 18:49

Seeing as I'm being quoted I feel I need to justify my original post.

7-8 hours flight is outside Europe. I did make the assumption that this was middle east/ possibly SE Asia as I thought US was more like 9 hours plus.

If the op comes back and says it's NOT one of the countries I assumed it to be, then I will retract my comment.

This guy may have no intention of abducting his children. All I can say is that, as a mother, I would feel exactly the same as this guy's ex and I wouldn't allow it either.

steff13 · 15/06/2015 18:56

There was a pretty famous case here in the US, where a mother took her son on "vacation" to her home country (Brazil) and never came back. If I were the mother in this case, I can't say it wouldn't cross my mind that the dad is going to take my child and never return.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_child_abduction_case

lilivonshtupp · 15/06/2015 18:57

YABU - if the country is potentially one not under the Geneva convention (as the others said.)

I used to do a writing class and one of the women 'lost' her child to a middle eastern country until the girl was 19 years old. That was over 15 years she had no contact all all with her little girl. The woman used to write such painful, powerful stories about how helpless she was about all of this.

Her 'D'H was a very respectable man too and i'm sure the sun shone out of his arse as well, but he still stole their DD away. There is no way I would allow this, as a mother.

I'm sure your friend is a very nice person, but it doesn't negate the fact that these abductions do happen and with increasingly and alarming frequency. The mother is being very sensible.

steff13 · 15/06/2015 19:03

Brazil is under the Hague Convention, and it still took them years and lots of legal action to return Sean Goldman, even after his mother had passed away and he was living with his stepfather.

NRomanoff · 15/06/2015 19:06

clear that's not assuming he will, it's assuming that her concerns could be deemed reasonable

RabbitSaysWoof · 15/06/2015 19:30

Years ago a family member lost her dd to her Turkish Cypriot xp when he took her for a home visit to hes extended family. I was a child at the time, wouldn't have a clue about the end outcome but I remember it being a big talking point for my Mum for years, every conversation with extended family members and friends about it she would say that he seemed so nice, they got along so well after the break up. She didn't see it coming.

SnapesCapes · 15/06/2015 19:42

I refused DS1's Dad permission to take him abroad when he was very small. Not because of any fear of abduction, simply because he wasn't the best Dad and would have spent a large amount of time at the bar drinking and not keeping as close an eye on DS1 as I'd have liked.

I'll fully accept that I was BU to say no, and that I'm a cow of an ex (we get on very well now, and if he were to ask to take him abroad now I'd not hesitate to say yes). But Ex was in a very different place then and I couldn't have guaranteed DS1's safety with him, so felt I had no choice but to say no.

It could easily be as simple as that, with none of the potential abduction stuff. You just don't know unless you're inside that relationship. Being a "dear friend" still doesn't give you an unbiased insight.

Original poster

squashandsqueeze · 15/06/2015 20:53

OK, I guess I posted in the wrong section. I don't need to know if you think she is being unreasonable. From the discussion they have had, I know she is, and if I was to share this, I'm sure most would agree.

There is a lot of history and specifics that I have no intention of going into. It's not my place to say, and perhaps I shouldn't have posted anything at all. The only reason I did is because I hate to see him suffering the way he is, feeling so helpless, and I wanted to see if there was anything he hadn't thought of that could help him.

There has been some good advice and helpful discussion on here and I'm grateful for that. Regardless of where he's from, I know he only has the best intentions, and perhaps some of the points raised on here will help him to clarify his situation.

OP posts:

ADishBestEatenCold · 15/06/2015 21:31

Okay, a different sort of question (or few), squashandsqueeze.

You say "He desperately wants to take his dd to see his family, get to know them"

How old is this child and do none of his family come to see her in her home country? Have they never been? Never met her?

The "his family" to whom you refer, is that his parents, the child's grandparent's or is it more 'distant' family?

Original poster

squashandsqueeze · 15/06/2015 21:44

His dd is 10. The family he would be visiting are his immediate family. They have visited in the past, but this was a while ago, and they are unable to travel now. He is concerned that if he doesn't take his dd to visit soon, she will miss out on getting to know her grandparents (age and ill health).

OP posts:

Sconejamcream · 15/06/2015 22:02

I wouldn't risk letting my child out of the country, especially to certain countries. Some people spend years faking niceness just to get to this point to abduct the child. Might not happen in they case, it might. You dont know for sure. Some family members may force the issue once in situ.

CalleighDoodle · 15/06/2015 22:33

I wouldnt allow it either.

Does he own a house here? Or rent?
The fact the country isnt signed up to the hague convention is enough for me to say abdoluely not though.

ADishBestEatenCold · 15/06/2015 23:18

"He is concerned that if he doesn't take his dd to visit soon, she will miss out on getting to know her grandparents (age and ill health)."

If she doesn't really know her Grandparents, one single trip of (say) two weeks isn't really going to make a huge amount of difference to that, so straight off I think he is being (at best) unrealistic or even (perhaps unintentionally) not being strictly honest about his long term plans.

One thing I am starting to feel from your posts is that you seem to be very emotionally invested in this and, for that reason, you are probably not the best person to advise him.
For example, with regards to his exW you say that "from the discussion they have had, (you) know she is (being unreasonable)"
How do you know, squashandsqueeze? Did you take part in these discussions with them both, or were they related to you afterwards by just one of them?

It is not unreasonable that he should want to know what his actual legal rights are, with regards to a bona fide holiday or anything else, but he should seek this information through the proper channels and within a proper context ... that is (certainly) that his legal rights and his exW's legal rights are both upheld where realistic, but predominately that the child's legal rights and safety are paramount.

FWIW, you sound like a nice person squashandsqueeze, who believes what she is saying, but (from the little said on here) if I were the child's mother, I don't think I would let her go.

fairyfuckwings · 15/06/2015 23:26

I understand you don't want to give the specific country. But am I right in my assumption that it's a Muslim country? Because if it is, all mothers would be naturally wary given the difference in the law over there.

I gave my original answer on that assumption. I know my particular post has wound a lot of people up. So, if I'm wrong, I apologise.

Atenco · 16/06/2015 01:43

But am I right in my assumption that it's a Muslim country?

Are we going to start into Islamophobia now? I live in Mexico, which is a signatory to the Hague Convention but is very, very bad at enforcing it, especially when there are influencial people on the Mexican side. But even when they do enforce it, it can take a very long time to get a child back and the trauma of being kidnapped is awful. There was a Canadian child found here a week ago who had been missing for over five years as her parent never let her out of the house.

But getting back to the subject, OP, it looks like the only thing your friend can do is to see if the courts would overrule the mother.

FeckTheMagicDragon · 16/06/2015 01:43

Is it a Hague convention country? if so - yes she is BUR. if not sorry - but no, i wouldn't risk it.

fairyfuckwings · 16/06/2015 07:39

How is it Islamaphobia???? In muslim countries custody is awarded to the father. I haven't just made that up because I'm afraid of Muslims! !!

meyesmyeyes · 16/06/2015 07:58

Fairywings has asked a perfectly reasonable question.

wannaBe · 16/06/2015 08:32

so, this is a country not signed up to the Hague convention, to visit family the child has no relationship with?

Given the xw has previously had no issue with the dd having access with her father there is presumably a lot more to this than the op is privvy to, and I would start by wondering about the family in question.

If the child has no relationship with them, then presumably the ex also has no or a very limited relationship with them. but she may know enough about them to not consider them to be the kinds of people to have an influence over her child. It's also possible that, while the op's friend is a perfectly lovely, nice, kind chappy while here in the UK, he is heavily influenced by his family and would be more so when visiting them in his non Hague convention country.

There are other things which would need to be taken into account based on the country they were visiting, e.g. is it a country which has a culture of arranged/forced marriage for instance? The dd would be approaching an age where she would be able to be set up to be matched with her future husband in such a country. Or is it a country where women have very few rights and the father would automatically be awarded custody?

For me, these would all be factors I would look at before I even considered having children with someone who came from another country. But love is blind and hindsight is 20/20. But after a split they are definitely things which every parent should take into consideration.

TwinkieTwinkle · 16/06/2015 13:03

I actually can't believe some of the responses here. People so willing to believe that a father would abduct his own child but not that perhaps the ex is a bit of a bitch. I think there are far more bitchy exes in the country than child stealing ones. I'd also like to point out the OP has said nothing that sounds like the father is trying to disappear with the child. Did I miss the part where she said it was a Muslim country or was that just another whopping assumption?

Fucking hell, some people really need to get a grip and back off on the man bashing and distrust.

muminhants1 · 16/06/2015 13:15

It could also be an sub-Saharan African country with a 7 hour flight. In that case I'd be quite concerned about the dd contracting some ghastly lurgy (my cousin caught something in Zambia which means he's on medication for the rest of his life).

NRomanoff · 16/06/2015 14:26

twinkie what are your reading. The op asked if the woman was unreasonable. The responses are 'it depends on where he is going' and that she maybe bu or maybe not. But they can't tell because the op isn't saying where it is. But then the op didn't actually want to know if the woman is bu. she was simply fishing for information to help her friend.

If it is a country that isn't part of The Hague convention, or is known for not sticking by it, then in court he will likely loose. Especially if he has no tie to this country, other than his daughter.

People do take their children abroad and don't return with them. It not completely ridiculous to consider this when trying to answer whether the wan is bu or not.

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