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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is she being unreasonable?

112 replies

squashandsqueeze · 13/06/2015 15:11

A dear friend of mine has been separated a couple of years and his dd lives with ex wife. He has regular contact, they talk every day and she stays with him a couple of nights a week. They have a very good relationship.

He is originally from another country and his family all still live abroad. They have been unable to visit for a while now and unfortunately it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. He desperately wants to take his dd to see his family, get to know them, see where he grew up, learn about the country and the culture etc.

However, his ex is adamant that she will not allow him to take his dd abroad.

Is she allowed to do this? He is on her birth certificate, he pays regular maintenance, would do anything for his dd, tries his best to keep things amicable with the ex.

I can't help thinking that, as he's also her parent, he should have an equal say?? Is there anything he can do in this situation?

OP posts:
WashingUpFairy · 13/06/2015 19:33

I once got told that you could take your child overseas for up to 30 for a holiday without the other parent's consent.

I'm also wondering about which country it is though if I'm honest.

MixedMessages · 13/06/2015 19:42

lazy the op has responded -without answering the country question. So whilst they may be out "tripping the light fantastic" Hmm it seems more likely that they're simply avoiding the question.

I agree depends on country. I'd be a lot more relaxed about my DC going to France than I would Iran.

LazyLouLou · 13/06/2015 19:48

Meh. It's a forum, she may not know the country, she may feel it might identify her to others. In light of other recent posts she may not exist.

The information given is correct, regardless of which country he comes from. In any event demanding information seems a bit OTT to me. As does assuming that a parent, mum or dad, is bound to be a bad 'un, as fairy seems to have.

LazyLouLou · 13/06/2015 19:50

And why the face at "tripping the light fantastic"?

Does it have another meaning on MN... maybe it is what you do after using the penis beaker, eating pom bears.... Shock Grin

Original poster
squashandsqueeze · 13/06/2015 20:14

I am asking the question hoping to offer advice to my friend who is struggling with the situation at the moment.

He is one of the most honest, caring, giving, trustworthy people I know and genuinely just wants to take his dd to visit his family, and in particular elderly parents. I'm sure most people would understand this reasoning.

I don't want to state the country or give too much specific information as he is unaware of my post and don't want to say too much.

To be honest, the question isn't 'should his ex let him take dd to such and such country' and I don't think it's particularly relevant. I wanted to know if there were any other options he hasn't thought of yet, and am grateful for those who have made suggestions.

OP posts:
wanttosqueezeyou · 13/06/2015 20:17

You can't tell us which country...

Can you tell us if the country is signed up to the Hague convention?

WhereYouLeftIt · 13/06/2015 20:18

With respect, the country is very relevant. Wanting to take your daughter to Italy would be a very different scenario to taking her to Somalia/Yemen/Iran/Libya. And the country may well be the sticking point rather than the going on holiday.

gamerchick · 13/06/2015 20:22

I would be reluctant if it's one of those countries you would be screwed if your bairn went and didn't come back and since the op won't say I'm assuming it is so therefore I'm with the ex.

BoneyBackJefferson · 13/06/2015 22:16

squashandsqueeze

"He is one of the most honest, caring, giving, trustworthy people I know and genuinely just wants to take his dd to visit his family, and in particular elderly parents. I'm sure most people would understand this reasoning."

I understand the reasoning, but I need more information before I know whether she is being unreasonable or not.

"the question isn't 'should his ex let him take dd to such and such country' and I don't think it's particularly relevant"

That would depend on the country.

ADishBestEatenCold · 14/06/2015 00:10

I think there are some countries which would make "To which country?" a very relevant question.

I'm not really convinced by the reason you give for being unwilling to give more detail. That (rightly or wrongly) does make me wonder if the ex does have a point.

lavenderhoney · 14/06/2015 08:33

what county? A 7 or 8 hour flight takes you to the U.S. or the Middle East, op, and I don't know about the U.S. But there is no Hague convention with the ME. If his entire family live abroad, his ew may feel he wants to return and take his dd for good.

Even a trip to France would be out of the question if there was a worry he then caught a flight to his home country.

There are too many variables, op, and why now all of a sudden? Hold old is his dd?

Nervo · 14/06/2015 09:03

Perhaps the dd doesn't want to go and her Mum is protecting her from saying so.

My mil did this for dh when he was about 12. Fil is still bitter about it over 25 years later.

thegirlinthebed · 14/06/2015 09:35

If someone took a child to a country that is signed up to The Hague convention - what is to stop them getting a flight from that country to a country not signed up to the convention

LazyLouLou · 14/06/2015 11:20

I love all the 'with respect' and 'but I need mores'... did I miss a bit when signed up... where is my Spanish Inquisition membership card? Demand, demand, demand.

OP, you have enough information now. You know enough to look up all sorts of details that could help your friend. That, at least, is MN at its best. Everything else, all the demands, half arsed insinuations etc, are of absolutely no importance.

I hope your friend gets things sorted with his ex.

Original poster
squashandsqueeze · 14/06/2015 18:23

Thank you LouLou

OP posts:
NRomanoff · 14/06/2015 18:38

No one can say if she is bu or not, because you don't want give an detail. To be honest if my ex wanted to take my child out of the country to some where it would be impossible to get my child back from, then I wouldn't give permission.

lou without knowing the situation of the intended country of travel no one can answer the ops question about whether it's reasonable or not. That's why people are asking.

The op may think he is an amazing person. I am pretty certain that his ex probably doesn't.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 14/06/2015 18:54

I once got told that you could take your child overseas for up to 30 for a holiday without the other parent's consent

This is only applicable if you have a residence order and you are named as the resident parent on it.

Without a residence order you cannot.

Obviously we don't have residence orders anymore they are child arangements orders and I am unsure if there is a simeler condition attached to those

NeedsAsockamnesty · 14/06/2015 19:00

And several things just off the top of my head would be a good reason for a court to agree with the RP

where religious mutilations could be an issue, threats to not return even historical,none Hague convention, family CP risk, disability or illness not compatible with the trip or with person able to provide adiquate support, suspicious activity surrounding the booking i.e none disclosure, country where UK citizens are being advised not to visit.

Loads of reasons really

ClearEyesFullHearts · 14/06/2015 19:37

It's worth pointing out that, from the OP, ex-husband has had the daughter for a week of holiday in same country before.

There has been nothing to stop the ex-husband from booking a flight to his home country during that time, and probably nothing could have been done about it.

As far as written permission, in a recent thread MNers were advising a poster that she could just fake the permission as her child's father was nowhere to be found.

I point this out because, while I agree that it could be risky to allow one's child to go to a country that does not have agreements in place with the UK, the husband in this case hasn't demonstrated any reason for doubt. Has he?

And the 'rules' that are in place are laughable as there seem to be no checks in place.

It's a minefield that seems to depend solely on the trust and relationship between separated parents. I wouldn't trust the government to take care of it.

lavenderhoney · 14/06/2015 19:51

It doesn't say on the op he has taken her alone for a holiday to his country of origin.

There is a reason why the ex won't let him. If you knew that reason it might help you help him.

I also agree the child may not want to travel long haul without her primary carer or be away for a couple more nights - and that needs to be taken into consideration. The child has rights too, which may or may not fit in with parents.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 14/06/2015 19:56

I think the op is referring to having holidays within the country the child normally resides in as opposed to the county he wishes to go to.

The op may not know the reason the RP is refusing she may also not know about private things within the relationship that could potentially cause concerns.

And I've been stopped and checked at the airport.

Faking it is never a good idea and if you do not know the location a written declaration witnessed by a proper person and a witness statement also in front of an appropriate person would usually be acceptable

Atenco · 14/06/2015 19:56

Not all the countries signed up the the Hague Convention enforce it as they should. Mexico is particularly bad when it comes to influential families at least.

Still it is a shame if he is as trustworthy as you say, but it is really so frightening when you hear about mothers being separated from their children, I can understand his ex being paranoid. I sent my dd abroad to visit her father and her grandparents when she was still quite small, but I thought long and hard about it.

ClearEyesFullHearts · 14/06/2015 20:12

lavenderhoney you're right. The OP hasn't said he'd taken the daughter to his home country. The OP said:

His dd is 10 and he's taken her on holidays for a week or so at a time in this county

...I admit I assumed 'county' meant 'country' and that the OP's friend and his ex both reside in UK. Possibly that's too much assumption.

sockpuppet's advice is good; we should all seek legal advice, learn the rules, and follow them.

I guess I'm just stating that at this point it would be a shame to assume that this man wants to take his daughter to Iran (for example) for any purpose other than to get to know his and her extended family.

Atenco · 14/06/2015 20:46

In the end, even with the Hague Convention being properly enforced, these things take there time and their toll. I think the question is does the ex trust the child's father or not. And unfortunately there are so many stories in the papers of parents who seemed totally trustworthy and then did not bring their children back, I think it is understandable, even if unfair, that a mother wouldn't let the father take the child to their home country, even though they have no reason to distrust them. Of course the one who loses out is the child.

kinkyfuckery · 14/06/2015 21:31

I find usually these types of 'dear friends' - when there's an evil ex lurking behind the scenes - turns out to be a boyfriend....

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