To wonder how eating dog meat is any different to eating any other kind of meat?

[xiaozhu]

Just that, really.

On one level it's no different at all. Meat is meat.

But on another level it is different as dogs and humans have lived alongside each other and evolved together in a different way from other animals. There is a mutually beneficial relationship between the species which is deep rooted and which doesn't exist with other animals like cattle, pigs etc which have always been primarily reared for food and nothing else.

True. But on the level of pain .......

Squirrelsmum: quite. Many Chinese people hate this festival - and yet it has been implied on this thread that it is considered 'acceptable' there. Obviously not, otherwise they would not be taking the enormous risk of staging a protest.

I am not denying that some of these animals are kept and killed in horrific ways. What I am saying is that a disproportionate amount of attention is drawn to the case of dogs in the far east. Personally, I think it's got a lot to do with the generally anti-Chinese, commie-bashing press here in the west.

And the reason why I am skeptical about the genuineness of some of these pictures is because I have seen them faked and/or misused by animal rights protesters in the past. For example, when I was at university my boyfriend studied in the animal psychology research institute attached to his faculty. They had mice and rats which were kept quite humanely. Yet there were animal rights protesters outside the institute everyday hurling abuse at people working there and handing out pictures of skinned monkeys to passers by. There weren't any monkeys anywhere near this place. Goodness knows where they got these pictures, or why any researcher would want to skin a monkey. But these people were completely insane, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff on the internet is completely fake. Add this to an anti-China agenda, and you have a gazillion pictures of someone who looks vaguely Asian supposedly boiling a live dog.

Dogs are gross, they smell bad, lick their bums and balls, have nasty breath and eat disgusting things. No way would I want to eat one!

Pigs are gross, too: I don't eat them, either.

Sheep, fish and chickens: not so gross.

DamsonInDistress it is widely reported that that is not the case, for example.

There are many things that shouldn't be happening in animal production, and are often not legal, but it doesn't mean they don't go on.

A question to those in the know: are hormones regularly added to meat consumed in the UK?

Despite what Gobber's would have you believe, no, they're not. It's banned.

Clearly and unbiased site there Gobbers... I have no doubt that many farmers push the boundaries as far as they are able, as I said I've worked on agricultural issues in national govt and sat in EU meetings for years and seen it all before. But it's simply not the case to say that farmers across the UK are using growth promoting hormones and prophylactic antibiotics on a daily basis on their animals, as you are implying. You're wrong.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and would be bloody thrilled to be wrong, but does that mean everything currently readable that states that antibiotics are routinely used, including medical and governmental concern over their continuing use, to the extent of it contributing to the rise of antibiotic resistance, is just bollocks then? Because that would be just great if that was true.

Fantastic then, thrilled to be wrong, happy to watch the situation pan out.

The meat is no different, just people's reactions to it!

For me it is far more important that the animal was treated well while it was alive and did not suffer when the time came to slaughter it and that the meat is of good quality, not cut with poor quality offal or pumped full of drug and preservatives.

The cultures that traditionally eat dog such as China and South America do not have good track records on animal welfare and for that reason I would not eat dog and I also refuse to visit those parts of the world as I do not want to support a culture that is so cruel to animals.

No... I'm not vegan, I'm a farmer and I also hunt, shoot and fish!

xiaozhu As someone who hunts and shoots I know what you mean about the extremists in the animal rights movement, they are a sandwich short of a picnic. We do see a distorted view of China in the west but I have yet to hear any counter arguments to the party line of 'China is mean to animals'. I am however open to having my mind changed. Is there much debate on the subject of animal rights within China?

Anyway, to clarify OP

I don't have a problem with people eating dogs (or indeed any animals).

I do have a problem with people being cruel to animals (any animals, any country).

I think it's a cultural thing...having said that though, I still don't see it as a necessity to survival. The vile "meat festival" in China where dogs and cats are slaughtered on the street and sold for meat is just grossly inappropriate. I mean, there's hardly a distinct lack of cows/pigs/chickens in China is there?! They aren't going to starve if they don't eat dogs and cats are they?

emzii Well eating pigs/chickens/cows isn't necessary to survival either. And why is the dog festival more 'vile' than a cow/chicken/pig festival? And does it maje any difference whether the animals are slaughtered in the street or in an abattoir? They all die, whether we see it or not.

manina Yes, increasingly there is a lot of debate about animal welfare in China, although as a developing country it is still not that mainstream. But many people keep dogs as pets and the vast majority of Chinese would not dream of going to a dog meat festival, or being cruel to any animal for that matter, which is why I take great offence at your comment that it is 'a culture that is so cruel to animals'. No it's not: it is a culture that is portrayed in the press as being cruel to animals, because the press has another agenda.

Have you been to France, where they force feed geese until their livers are so swollen they burst in order to make fois gras? Or eaten lobster, which really is boiled alive? And what about Denmark where they are so cruel to their pigs, and yet the supermarket shelves in the UK are dominated by Danish bacon. It saddens me that people are so quick to swallow what the press tells them about other countries before taking a much closer look at their own.

The fact that dogs are carnivores, for one thing! Diet and upbringing affects the taste of meat. If you must eat meat (and I do, even though I find slaughter cruel, I just feel healthier with some beef occasionally in my diet), eating quality, well fed animals slaughtered with a minimum of stress so they don't produce excess stress hormone produces a much more pleasant taste. And less naturally produced chemical taint. Adrenalin is not a nice addition to meat.

xiaozhu And what about Denmark where they are so cruel to their pigs, and yet the supermarket shelves in the UK are dominated by Danish bacon. It saddens me that people are so quick to swallow what the press tells them about other countries before taking a much closer look at their own.

Christ, you don't know much about the Danish pig farming industry, do you? Along with banning non-pre-stun slaughter, Danish pig farming leads the way in being anti-castration of piglets to reduce unnecessary pain and suffering. The UK is Denmark's biggest market because UK tastes are not sensitive to boar taint, unlike for example German tastes.

What was it you said about swallowing what the press tells people about other countries before sounding off? Seriously, this isn't hard to research. There is a LOT of research about this and other issues, with Denmark really leading the way.

Well eating pigs/chickens/cows isn't necessary to survival either. And why is the dog festival more 'vile' than a cow/chicken/pig festival? And does it maje any difference whether the animals are slaughtered in the street or in an abattoir? They all die, whether we see it or not.

I need to eat them to survive thank you very much.

If you honestly can't see why it matters where and how the animals are slaughtered then there's not really much more to say.

(And you're fulfilling one of those cultural stereotypes you keep banging on about....)

What was it you said about swallowing what the press tells people about other countries before sounding off? Seriously, this isn't hard to research. There is a LOT of research about this and other issues, with Denmark really leading the way.

The OP isn't interested in research, she's on a one woman crusade to convince us that killing dogs and cats in vile ways is tolerable because we eat bacon....

I'm honestly trying to work out what the point of the thread is.....

We make rules about all areas of our lives to make us feel comfortable and safe. For that matter why not eat people? We're meat too.

xiaoshu, I entirely agree with your assertion that 'Chinese cruelly kill and eat cute puppies' is part of a demonisation of a whole nation (and other nations) and an attempt at 'othering' - 'they' are just no like 'us'

And I get irked some fringes of the animal rights movement getting violent over the treatment of animals (horrific as it may be) when there is plenty of horrific treatment of humans and children going on world-wide.

I have seen chickens, rabbits and pigs killed and slaughtered and have participated in butchering and plucking chickens/game birds - when done in small numbers and for own consumption it is entirely possible to feel a sense of regret for the life lost and gratitude to it and still enjoy the end product.
IMO it is mass production of cheap meat that is a huge problem - we should all eat less meat of a much better quality, in terms of rearing, killing and butchering.

I am not vegetarian, but I eat meat rarely and I buy the most expensive organic quality I can get.
I worry how many people only know meat coming out of white polystyrene containers containing 4 pale chicken breast, whole universes removed from the bird they came from.

What a very interesting thread

If it helps I've seen dogs stolen, transported, and seized, or slaughtered in China and Vietnam.

I've also worked with pork, poultry and beef producers in China and Vietnam. Whilst problems exist in all livestock industries the unregulated, un-stunned, stolen dogs transported for hundreds or thousands of miles and suffering infectious disease have significantly more welfare issues than the regulated livestock trade.

That's not AR propaganda. It's years of direct experience working in the East.

I think the Yukon dog meat festival upsets people because there is no correlation here. We don't celebrate the un-stunned, inhumane slaughter of any animal species. We legislate against it.

It is of course fantastic that many people in China, Vietnam etc are working to improve these issues (and I have many colleagues doing the same) But the fact remains that these practices are supported by market demand and a lack of legislation and until the countries in question address those issues, then these unregulated practices will continue to 'represent' countries internationally.
It's got bugger all to do with communism

Yulin - bloody autocorrect

Iknow "(And you're fulfilling one of those cultural stereotypes you keep banging on about....)" As it happens, I am not Chinese at all. But your comment has demonstrated two things: (i) you admit that there are cultural stereotypes (which is what I'm getting at) and (ii) you are far too quick to jump to conclusions. I do think it matters how animals are slaughtered, but whether humans see it or not makes no difference to the animal, does it? So if you're going to kill a dog, may as well kill it on the street as anywhere else. In fact, it's better that people see these things for what they are.

And Chandler, what you're saying is only partly true. In fact the Danish raise pigs for the UK separately from the pigs they produce for other countries, precisely because of concerns in the UK over animal welfare in Denmark. So people in the UK might be getting more ethical meat, but people elsewhere aren't. Yes, the Danish have improved standards over recent years, however. But it's a classic example.

And Sunshine, I think there is a big emphasis on the far east (especially China) in the press but not on other countries where exactly the same thing goes on. Why the emphasis on China? It's got to be something to do with politics.

Pacific I'm reassured by your comments.

I'm not aware of dog meat festivals in other countries (though they may well happen) and I agree that there's often sensationalisation and inaccuracy in media reporting. The media is often sexist, racist, anti-immigrant, anti-other etc If it helps I also get very frustrated with inaccurate cultural stereotypes, but I think to dismiss concerns as propaganda or activist lies is a bit naive.

Recognising that significant welfare problems exist. ( And there are significant issues in the theft, trade and transport of dogs to Yulin) plus massive welfare issues relating to non-stunned roadside slaughter. The fact that's its displayed openly doesn't really address these issues

sunshine I agree. I mean that it's not being concealed or covered up in any way - it's not all happening behind some glossy PR front as it does in the west. Being open about it doesn't address the matter but at least it's not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

And I suppose it partly answers my question: it's because they're so open about it that they can be criticised. But that will hopefully lead to a quicker end to the cruelty (if not the practice of eating dog meat).

And Chandler, what you're saying is only partly true. In fact the Danish raise pigs for the UK separately from the pigs they produce for other countries, precisely because of concerns in the UK over animal welfare in Denmark. So people in the UK might be getting more ethical meat, but people elsewhere aren't. Yes, the Danish have improved standards over recent years, however. But it's a classic example.

precisely - no, you are wrong. You really need to make the effort to read up about the subject you are waffling on about. Denmark is the leading country in BANNING non-stun slaughter, and is leading the way in Europe towards more ethical pig farming methods. Don't confuse indoor rearing with factory farming either.

90% of Danish pig produce is exported, the majority to other EU Member States, and it accounts for around half of all Danish agricultural products and 5% of Denmark's total exports. Denmark also prides itself on high food safety standards and good animal health. The "Male-Pig-Projekt" initiative in Danish pig farming was designed to raise profit margins and reduce distress to pigs resulting from the process of castration. This involved farming uncastrated pigs, despite the risk of the meat producing a smell (or so-called "boar taint") of the male sex hormone androstenone when heated or cooked. According to Danish researchers, the presence of boar taint could be detected by measuring the skatol content of the carcass at the time of slaughter, and all Danish slaughter lines were fitted with skatol measuring equipment to enable meat affected to be identified and rejected.

The Danish pig-farming industry has done much research into the issue, finding that castration caused pain from tissue-tearing and analgesia which was not always applied, that immunocastration caused delayed effects and needle-distress, and that anaesthetic was too difficult to apply to young male pigs and caused an unacceptable risk to humans, and that all methods only took into account market preferences and not animal welfare concerns. Obviously it there were also considerable cost savings in not castrating stock, although Denmark is one of the EU leaders in trying to move away from heavy use of medication in the meat industry. It was found that certain markets in the EU were more sensitive to boar taint than others and that the reasons for this might include dietary and smoking habits in those Member States. The UK by contrast does not castrate pigs intended for human consumption at all.

The Danes have done a lot of research into this, which you might be wise to familiarise yourself with. Try Bekaert, K.M., et al (2011). “The sensitivity of Flemish citizens to androstenone: Influence of gender, age, location and smoking habits.” Meat Science, 88, p. 548-552; Hansen-Møller, Jens and Andersen, Jan Rud (1994). “Boar taint; analytical alternatives.” Danish Meat Research Institute, Manuscript No. 1209 E; Jensen, Werner Klinth (1998). “Skatole and boar taint. Results from an integrated national research project investigating causes of boar taint in Danish pigs.” Danish Meat Research Institute, Roskilde.

I think there is a big emphasis on the far east (especially China) in the press but not on other countries where exactly the same thing goes on. Why the emphasis on China? It's got to be something to do with politics.

Come now. The vast area that is currently contained within the nation of China is hardly homogenous and contains many disparate cultures alongside that of mainstream Chinese, with the same attitudes towards a very specific culture towards animals and eating certain types of meat.