To wonder how eating dog meat is any different to eating any other kind of meat?

[xiaozhu]

Just that, really.

[xiaozhu]

Well I'm glad to hear that vegan. But that's not what you said in your posts.

[xiaozhu]

I think that, whilst veganism is not such a bad thing in itself, it is currently a luxury that only the rich of this world can afford. It's unfair for vegans to judge the less privileged for not prioritising the vegan way of life.

[VeganCow]

So people who think that animal is abuse is ok, are not less empathetic, less human? Of course they are.

I do not think for a minute that a whole race, country, continent, are as a whole the same, not for a minute. I would be stupid ( as well as deranged ) if I though that. In the news last week while the Yulin festival was going on was a situation where some men who had tortured dogs were rounded up and pretty much had a taste of their own medicine. The people dishing it out were Chinese. Nowhere have I said that all people living there are like this.
And yes, youre correct, there are loads of places in the world who treat animals badly (and people of course).
But we are discussing China because dog eating which was what the OP was about is a practice there. We could have been discussing Korea.

[Justanotherlurker]

if we all turned vegan overnight we would see an end to global warming, we could save the NHS millions by the lack of cancers people would need to be treated for, the obesity crisis would end and people would live longer and healthier lives

Please explain how this would happen

We would all die out because we couldn't support the planet.

The global warming issue is ignoring the fact of the amount vegetables that would need to be mass transported, and the introduction of pesticides and land grab to grow them.

But with regards to OP, have you ever tried to have a cow as a pet?

They don't fetch the paper or sticks, and carrying around a couple of bin bags while on a walk is ridiculous.

Plus they aren't as tasty

[xiaozhu]

Hag, my point exactly. People in the west have a tendency to judge the Chinese from the privileged position of having grown up in a largely stable, developed country where we are lucky enough to keep pampered, anthropomorphised pets. It's grossly unfair that the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are remembered by many people I know like they happened yesterday, and yet rather than praising China for the astonishing progress that has been made in in the last 30 years, people in the west choose to focus on the fact that they have not yet managed to reform their animal welfare/environmental/population control policies etc. And the fact that some people put this down to some kind of moral or cultural deficiency supposedly unique to the Chinese, just adds bigotry to ignorance and intolerance.

[HagOtheNorth]

You know how many people harp on about the war?
All that stuff about waste not, want not and thriftiness that our grandparents (and in my case my parents) went on about? That was 70 years and more ago, and many talk about it as if it was recent history.

I read this book, www.amazon.co.uk/Maos-Great-Famine-Devastating-Catastrophe/dp/1408810034amongst?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 several others, and it opened my eyes a little to what the Chinese people under Mao's rule endured.
'Between 1958 and 1962, 45 million Chinese people were worked, starved or beaten to death.'

That was whilst I was having my happy, indulgent childhood. With added pets.
If I'd been living elsewhere at the time, my attitude might have been very different when I grew to be an adult. My father took years to understand the value of a pet that didn't do anything useful, because of his poverty-stricken childhood. They kept rabbits and culled them often, just to have a bit of meat on the table.

[xiaozhu]

"Seems to me that they don't give two shits about animals suffering"

"they love to make animals suffer"

"they see animals as non living beings"

"why are these practices seen as normal in places China?"

You are referring to 1.3 billion people ("they") thinking that animal torture is not just acceptable and normal, but encouraged. Pretty deranged behaviour if you ask me. You then go on to say that "I see the people who think it's ok as hard, and not having feelings like I do." Which implies that "they" are all somehow less empathetic and 'human' in their feelings than you are. Which is rhetoric that Nazis and slave traders used to justify their actions.

I'm not saying that you're a Nazi vegan, but that your thinking, when taken to its logical conclusions, runs along the same lines. It's one of the things I find most twisted about some animal rights advocates: that in standing up for animal rights (commendable) they are promoting a dehumanising message about large groups of people.

And don't try and backtrack by suddenly adding a qualifier that it's only 'some' people in China who believe these things. You already told me not to "try and say again that these beliefs are not widespread, because they are, it is well documented." Well documented in your own mind, I assume?

Then you make another sweeping, completely incorrect statement which again implies that the Chinese are, as a population, somehow more inhumane than the rest of the world: "most parts of the world [...] in fact have animal welfare laws in place'. Erm, no, 'most' parts of the world do not have animal welfare laws, or if they do they are not enforced: much of Africa, south America, central Asia, India and the subcontinent, the Middle East and SE Asia. Do you think many of these countries have sufficient and effectively enforced animal rights laws? Or perhaps, rather like China, they have authoritarian governments who don't want to know, or other priorities such as war, poverty, civil unrest etc. It's not that people in these countries don't care or that they want to harm animals. It's just that adequate animal welfare laws are, like many other things we take for granted in the UK, western luxuries.

I think you should find some compassion and understanding for your fellow humans before you start crusading for animal rights on frankly quite bigoted grounds. Animal welfare has to start with human welfare.

[VeganCow]

OP where did I say that all Chinese are "mindless/deranged baby killers and animal torturers" , I have not mentioned babies once on this thread so I think you are getting me mixed up with someone else.

Also, haha to being called deranged by OP, I don't believe there is anything I have said that would ever lead someone to believe that.

I am vegan but have never said anywhere on MN that I believe other people should be.My problem with meat eating and dairy and egg production has always been the way animals are treated when they are alive and whilst they are being killed, whether that be UK or China...it just so happens that in China there are zero animal welfare laws, and that, coupled with some strange beliefs mean that animals suffer far far more in China than here..

you OP, yourself have just said, regarding the 'general belief in China that it is preferable to torture animals in order for the meat to taste better' Yes, there are some people in China who believe that . We don't think that here is the UK, most parts of the world do not believe that and in fact have animal welfare laws in place to ensure that even if people did believe that, there would be consequences for putting into practice the abhorrent things that have been mentioned on this thread that you yourself in fact have said are horrendous.

[xiaozhu]

Olivers, I may not be able to recall the exact details of an obscure EU case about swine taints, but I do know China. As I said above, the one child policy is now essentially a two child policy. If both husband and wife are only children themselves, the couple can have two children. Obviously this applies to most people of marrying age right now so most couples can have two children. But people from the more than 60 ethnic minorities in China, and people in rural areas, have always been able to have more than one child. And yes, forced abortion still happens, but like I said, it is now rare and causes outrage on social media when it comes to light so actually yes, things have changed.

But really this is not my point. My point is more that the Chinese are not all mindless/deranged baby killers and animal torturers, which is what Vegan (who sounds a bit deranged him/herself, tbh), was saying in his/her OP.

[LazyLouLou]

Please... stop with the Godwining... you aren't the only one and it really doesn't earn you any brownie points, or the right to flag it up as an excuse for attempting to win/stop a discussion with an overly emotive phrase.

And yes, you might have to take into account the necessary supplementation of diet that would need to occur in the UK if the whole population turned vegan. You would have to explain how transporting other foodstuffs in order to adequately replace animal protein for an entire population would be any better than transporting meat. You would have to explain how to feed the world whilst the food gap was filled - all those alternative foodstuff won't grow overnight. You'd have to look at the lessons learned from the change to the Japanese diet over the last 100 years and explain why we are ignoring them. You'd have to explain how current meat producers, real life farmers and their families not global conglomerates, would earn a living until they could switch to arable. You'd need a world police, to ensure nobody ate a remaining cow, insect, worm, fish... or even dog!

Oh, I could go on. But basically you would have to micro manage the entire world over a few decades to ensure that the change to veganism didn't kill off millions due to malnutrition and related diseases.

Oh yes, and you'd have to come up with a plan for humanely treating the existing livestock. Setting them free won't work... they'd still give off methane, they'd still eat grass, they'd still use the land, much as they do now. You'd have to kill them. All of them, or they will breed and multiply. And then what would you do with the carcasses?

Maybe I should have said, we play this game a lot

[Oliversmumsarmy]

Do I really have to explain that vegans have less cancers than the meat eating population, this would lead to less money having to be spent on healthcare. As for global warming, animals would not be artificially bred so reducing the carbon dioxide and methane gases in the atmosphere which trap the solar energy so heating the earths surface.

As for overly emotional, I am quite calm in stating what I believe. Sorry for posting my previous thread if it offended anyone but I have family members who knew first hand about the death camps so is part of everyday life for some of my close family.

[RedKite1985]

if we all turned vegan overnight we would see an end to global warming, we could save the NHS millions by the lack of cancers people would need to be treated for, the obesity crisis would end and people would live longer and healthier lives

Please explain how this would happen

[LazyLouLou]

Or maybe your previous post... the one that won a Godwin Award.

[LazyLouLou]

if we all turned vegan overnight we would see an end to global warming, we could save the NHS millions by the lack of cancers people would need to be treated for, the obesity crisis would end and people would live longer and healthier lives.

OK, you win. Most ridiculous post on an already overly emotional thread.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

xiaozhu Please get your facts right. The one child policy has been relaxed not ended in some parts of China It is still there. If forced abortions are still happening then nothing has changed.

In answer to your question derma, if we all turned vegan overnight we would see an end to global warming, we could save the NHS millions by the lack of cancers people would need to be treated for, the obesity crisis would end and people would live longer and healthier lives.

[derxa]

A very interesting thread which makes me wonder what would happen if we all turned vegan almost overnight. I mean just that. (not being sarcastic) The ramifications would be enormous.

[xiaozhu]

No Vegancow, it is not the general belief in China that it is preferable to torture animals in order for the meat to taste better, or that on the whole cruelty to animals is caused by some sadistic desire to inflict pain. Yes, there are some people in China who believe that and some sadistic animal torturers, but to say that this is a 'Chinese belief' that applies throughout the country is at worst bigoted, and at best ignorant, gullible and insulting. Same thing about the live bear bile. There are 1.3 billion people in China - of course there are going to be some backward and frankly insane people. But why do posters on this thread still insist on applying it to an entire nation? Especially when they haven't even been there (and apparently would never go there given that it is hell on earth, according to the western press), so couldn't possible be in a position to make a judgement about what 'Chinese culture' does and doesn't condone.

I'm sorry Vegancow, but what exactly is it that you are trying to get me to say? That yes, torturing animals is a great idea and that it's OK that some people in some parts of the world do it? Because you're completely missing the point.

And Olivers, the one child policy is now, essentially, a two child policy. Forced abortions do still happen, but are increasingly rare and cause huge outrage on social media when they come to light. Chinese people cherish children, and the idea of killing them off is completely abhorrent to them - it is part of a Government policy imposed on them and not something that the population condones.

Which leads me to what I think this is another problem with many of the comments made on this thread: the assumption that the Chinese population and the Chinese government are one and the same. It's absolutely not the case. In the UK we have a choice in who governs us, and to a certain extent the population can be held accountable for the actions of its government. China is a dictatorship, and a pretty oppressive one at that. I don't think I've ever met a single Chinese person who doesn't have some sort of strong objection to one government policy or another, and many who are concerned in particular about animal rights and the one child policy. But they don't have a choice. So rather than blaming what is, admittedly, a problem there on some kind of abnormal sadistic deficiency in the Chinese mentality, why don't you think a bit more carefully about how privileged we are in the west to have the power to be able to change things?

[Oliversmumsarmy]

Yes I realised what Hag was saying was sarcastic hence the Tongue in cheek reference

In late 2013 forced abortions were still taking place and the law has only been relaxed not repealed

[VeganCow]

Xiaozhu do you agree that its is belief in China that meat from animals that have been tortured before death is preferable? And that it isnt just that people are unthinking in their cruel treatment, its actually intentional, they want to cause horrendous distress, and they DO.
What are your thoughts on that? Also, what are your thoughts on people in China draining bile from live bears believing it has some super power?

It seems to me that other countries do not behave this way, and dont try and say again that these beliefs are not widespread, because they are, it is well documented.

[xiaozhu]

Nope, not 'promoting' the eating of dogs.

Oliver I thinkHag was being sarcastic. In any case, if you're implying that the Chinese habitually kill off children in a Hitleresque way...

To straighten out another common misconception: in fact, the one child policy has now ended in China, and there were always many exceptions to the rule anyway. While female infanticide and abandonment was more common in the past, it's now much less so due to education and laws banning disclosure of the foetus's gender to the parents. There are still issues in very rural areas, however. And the thirty year one child policy has caused lasting problems such as 'little emperor syndrome' and an imbalance between men and women. Still, it's 2015, not 1985, and things are very different there now.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

If we take this one step further why don't we just kill off any unwanted children, the disabled or anyone we define as less than human. Remember Hitler thought Jews were not people.

Your post Hag might have been tongue in cheek but China has a one child policy and a preference for boys so girl babies are abandoned, if they are lucky usually their fate can be a lot worse.

[HagOtheNorth]

'Well, I'm not the one promoting the eating of dogs

It would solve the overcrowding problems in all the rescue centres though. All those intelligent, lovely lifetime companions purched by those who love dogs and then dump them for a new dog, or because they got inconvenient.
It's not the dog-dislikers and non-owners that fill the rescues with bewildered, traumatised animals. It's ex dog owners.

[AmberFool]

Well, I'm not the one promoting the eating of dogs

That's quite offensive, actually. Nowhere has the OP promoted the eating of dogs.

Totally agree with you OP regarding how the Chinese Korean and Vietnamese are portrayed regarding this issue.

[xiaozhu]

In fact, I should add that one of the biggest problems in China is indeed lack of regulation of animal welfare - the government is not interested.

But most Chinese people don't publicly campaign for it because of what I've already said: protesting and lobbying the government in China is a dangerous game. Social media has definitely helped get the message across, but Facebook, Youtube, Twitter etc are banned and Chinese social media outlets are monitored and censored. Any hint of a coordinate, non-government approved movement tends to be nipped in the bud. So it's unfair to criticise them for not doing more to change things - many people are doing what they can under the circumstances.

[xiaozhu]

The OP thought this thread had died a death. But as it's come back to life, two things:

That video is horrendous - I had seen it before, in fact. It did the rounds on social media in China a while ago (and watchers were horrified, by the way). But I never denied things like that go on in China (as well as the rest of the world), and it's absolutely correct that more education/publicity is needed to stop things like that. What I am saying, though, is that it is not common (hence the shock and outrage at that video when it was circulated in China) and the vast, huge majority of Chinese people think that this treatment of animals is terrible.

Which leads me to my second point: what I really, really object to is comments that start with 'they all think [this]', and 'it sounds like an awful place, I'd never go there'. That's just tarring 1.3 billion people with one big fat bigoted brush, just because of what some Western news outlets choose to focus on. Yes, the Yulin dog meat festival is grim, but there is a massive protest movement against it in China which goes to show that 'they' don't 'all' think that torturing animals is OK. And those protesting against it must feel pretty passionately about it, as protesting is a pretty risky thing to do in China.