Contemplating training as a Primary School Teacher

[Nicky898]

A relative is at this stage after working in the hospitality industry for a number of years since graduating in Biomedical Science from a south coast university. She earns good money but works very long hours including week-ends and late nights. Her family think she would make a superb teacher. She loves maths and has A level and Higher/Further maths qualification.
Reading round posts here, now several years old, I am wondering if it is still the case that entry to permanent primary teaching posts is extremely competative and that very high numbers of applications are chasing very few vacancies? It was suggested that schools (for budgetary reasons) tend to manage with NQTs and tempoary posts, and that changes to pensions arrangements and the rise of Academy status are depressing the sence of reward individuals perceive. Is this still the case, or is there reason for optimism?

I think this would be better in chat or a working topic. Where's your AIBU?

You would be better posting in the Staffroom section of the Education section.

Don't be under any illusions that you won't be working weekends and late nights. I only teach a .4 timetable and still manage to fill most of my "free" days planning and marking. I take my hats off to anyone who teaches full time, does a reasonable job and stays sane.

Don't. Do. It!

OP - can't answer your questions but be prepared for lots of teachers to pile in to tell you they spend 24/7 planning and marking! I know several primary school teachers and they do no such thing, nor do they claim to.

MrsNextDoor is right, this probably isn't the right place for this. But I'll say a couple of things (I'm not a teacher but my mum, aunt, best friend and seemingly half the people I know are)

1. If she wants a career change to avoid working late nights and weekends she SHOULD NOT become a teacher. Teachers spend most evenings and weekends working, either marking, planning, making resources, preparing reports and god knows what else. The idea that teachers are out and off to do whatever at 4pm is nonsense, the amount of work they have to do outside the classroom is astronomical and on the rise. The teachers I know work more late nights and evenings than most. And then they get stick from the public for supposedly working what is basically considered to be part time, and the 'long holidays' (most teachers are working through most of the holidays as well)

2. Actually a lot of schools are finding it hard to fill posts at all. In the area I live (not inner city, fairly nice bit of Surrey) several schools are desperately scrambling to recruit anyone for a number of teaching posts. This is mostly to do with the fact that lots of people train to be teachers with no real idea of what it involves (ie. the long and thankless hours mentioned above) and end up quitting fairly quickly. The rate teachers are leaving the profession is very high. So actually finding a post shouldn't be that difficult in most areas.

Teaching can be extremely rewarding, and is amazing work if you have the temperament and ability for it, but its not easy work and a good idea of what the job actual entails is very important before embarking on training.

MonaLottie - the teachers you know are very lucky! Certainly teachers I know aren't working 24/7 but a 50/60 hour week is normal including lots of weekend work.

Think she should go for secondary maths. Shortage subject and she can pick & choose jobs. Primary will be more competitive.

Absolutely no way would I advise it for Primary. Life may be more bearable in Secondary, at a school with few disciplinary issues. I speak from experience. My sil was considering retraining in her late 40s. My advice was the same. No way. She is working as a TA and has decided to stay in that role.

I am still teaching. Not in the UK and part-time. It is wonderful. I know with certainty that I could/would never teach full-time again. I know how lucky I am that I am able to 'enjoy' teaching.

Alternative careers:

NHS scientist.
CRO industry (lots of them, this is the industry I work in.) plenty of options for a fresh biomed grad and possible to work your way up.

From personal experience (ex Primary, now in different sector) DH who was ex primary now FE and many many friends and relatives in all sectors, if she has the skills and qualifications, then do secondary maths. There is decent financial support and more jobs. There are swings and roundabouts with primary/secondary but I'd say primary requires more hours on the school premises as you also have an environment to keep up to high standards as well as everything else - while teachers aren't supposed to be putting up displays, the reality for many is that their TA hours are so committed to group and individual work that it's the only way they get done. To create a high quality (regularly changing- some schools demand every half term or term - that could be 24 interactive displays in one school year) learning environment requires a lot of work and imagination actually physically in the classroom (usually halfway up a ladder.)

There also tends to be more differentiation in the average primary class than secondary, where groups and sets reduce the massive differences in ability and attainment (especially in maths, not so much in e.g. RE, ICT) which means you can spend your whole life trying to personalise the learning for the children in your class.

Anecdotally, PPA is more useful to secondary teachers as well. Certainly many teachers in primaries, because they are responsible for all the learning in that class, have to set and mark the work done during PPA, which is often covered by a non-teacher for budget reasons. I know this isn't supposed to happen, but it does.

There also tends to be a more defined management structure in secondaries with different people having responsibility for subject lead, or pastoral. In smaller primaries it's not unusual for a class teacher to also be leading 2 or 3 subjects for the whole school, with neither pay nor time allocated to carry this out.

There is active recruitment for secondary STEM teachers at the moment. For someone who is genuinely interested, I'd say go for secondary. My secondary friends still work all the hours God sends, but manage to fit it round their families more effectively than many of the primary teachers I know.

I teach part time in a fantastic primary school. It's pretty great to be honest. Very tiring (apologies to all who think this constitutes whinging) hence the fact that I can never see myself going back to full time. In the right school with good support it's a lovely job and the holidays are great.....but you bloody well need them!

Yep - and the rest of the working population don't need long holidays because their jobs are such a doddle!

Not first hand experience but my sister is a primary teacher and I know she is in school from roughly 745am to 6pm. She chooses to stay at school to finish work off rather than take it home with her. She also avoids the traffic this way.

She is pretty tired by the end of the week, but I'm not sure how much of that is the job or just her having a moan as she is a bit of a drama llama! She can be a bit 29 going on 59 years old. She doesn't do any work in the evening and only does a bit at the weekend. She does some work during the holidays but certainly not huge amounts - I think she goes into school one day during a two week holiday. I think it is the last week of the 6 week holiday that she then begins to focus on school work again.

From what I can gather she is a good teacher and is certainly passionate about her job but she isn't working the hours I frequently see suggested on here.

I have a friend who is a HT and from being a teacher through to deputy and now HT, she has said that she works hard but no more than many other people. She says that there are times of the year which are particularly tiring and stressful but the majority of the year is fine and the holidays make up for it. I think she goes into school during the holidays a similar amount to my sister.

Mona, reading between the lines, I am deducing that while you are happy to semi-snipe, you just wouldn't be up to the job. I detect a tad of envy over the so-called 'holidays' on your part.

By the way, those 13 weeks teacher 'holidays' are unpaid. For this key reason, it will NEVER change.

To explain, teachers are paid for 1265 hours per year (plus unspecified hours to fulfil other duties) - these 1265 hours are divided over three terms. That means holidays are not paid, but the pay is salaried, i.e. divided by 12 months for the sake of ease. Has always been thus.

Your reading between the lines is way off, Captain No envy here, just pointing out that workers in many other jobs need holidays just as much - if not more - than teachers.

And of course teachers' holidays are paid - they have a legal entitlement to a number of paid leave days a year.

Why primary OP? She sounds like someone who'd be able to enter a very shortage subject as secondary, and the marking and planning would be less.
Does she have a degree?

Usually I resist a bunfight, but Mona... No, they are not. Teachers don't have "holiday days" which can be taken at will. They are not paid for school holidays either.

But you can post that a gazillion times on MN and the posters still won't believe you, so why not ignore and focus on the Op's question?
I don't understand why her relative wants to head for primary which appears to be much more workload heavy out of hours, according to many seconrdary teachers.
Do her family have the first clue about what makes a superb teacher? Or dot hey still have some rosy vision of little childern and pearls of wisdom?

Would she be better off as a secondary science teacher? I hear they're desperate.

I'm a primary teacher and I love it. Every day is different, I get home at a decent time, I have holidays with my kids.

I'd definitely recommend it as a career change.

Wish I'd proof-read that. It's not the spelling I have a problem with, it's keyboards.

Undoubtedly, are you working fulltime in a state school in England?
Please say yes, I need an outlier for my anecdotal survey!

I'm full time in private :)

honeysuckle - I'm not interested in a bunfight but you are wrong to say that teachers do not get paid for holidays - like other workers you have a statutory entitlement to (can't remember exact number) at least 20 days plus bank holidays.

HagOtheNorth So true! Point taken.

OP it does sound like secondary science might be more appropriate... Is she adverse to teenagers?

So what Mona? What is your point to address the OP?