AIBU to think Sexism cannot directly be compared to Racism

[Mengog]

Last week a female friend was getting ready for a night out. She was taking an age and I said "Typical Woman, never ready on time".

She took offence to this. Commenting that if woman was replaced by black person then it would be unacceptable.

My argument with her was Racism and Sexism cannot be directly compared. I said it's okay to have female only toilets, hospital ward, gyms at certain times, charity events, even music festivals etc etc. Female only spaces are seen as important.

However, the idea of having toilets only for black people, gyms times for black people or large national charity events were black people were only allowed to take part in would make people uncomfortable.

AIBU to think to directly compare racism to sexism in the way she did is simplistic and inaccurate.

MrsGently if you find that when you converse with people none of them look taken aback, shocked, pull a face, make eye contact with others in a way that indicates they do not like what you said, or tell you that they did not like what you said, then you are probably doing OK.

I manage to get through life without telling women that it is typical they take ages to get ready, or black people that I'm not surprised they are good at running, to take 2 examples on this thread. I may well offend or upset people unexpectedly, at some point, and if that happens my reaction will be, why are they upset, not that they are wrong and over-sensitive or whatever.

Saying to a woman "Typical Woman, taking ages to get ready" is clearly a sexist comment.

Oh actually just checked the Op it was "Typical Woman, never ready on time" which is even worse as it shows the woman as not just vain but also selfish, and with little disregard for others. Self absorbed and uncaring. Either that, or she must be a bit stupid if she is unable to manage her time in a task she has performed before.

It is really a very mean-spirited comment.

Actually, in real life, I find more people have that general attitude. I'm not racist, sexist or homophobic. I've suffered from discrimination in my life, as have those around me. However, I also recognise the world will never, ever be a happy, everyone love each other place. Absolutely everyone will (accidentally or not) say or do something discriminatory in their lives, several times. Everyone has a different view on what they find offensive themselves. We can't always win, we don't have to let every petty thing get to us. It's tiring and pointless. Otherwise we all might as well be mute from birth.

So if society moves so that saying "I knew you'd run fast" to a black person or "typical woman always late getting ready" to a woman are not considered to be oK, we might as well all be MUTE?

Good grief. There are loads of things that used to be in common parlance and "fair game" that are not any more. Much to the relief of the people who were on the receiving end. People haven't found themselves literally unable to say anything because of this move (forward).

And what happened here (in brief) was that:

man said something sexist to woman
women said she didn't like what he said and tried to justify not liking it (why did she feel the need? she shouldn't have) by comparing it to racism
man says don't be so silly shut up and says this at length with a narrative involving citing examples

That's not OK. Op sounds like a dick. As many on this thread have pointed out.

I think my objection to this thread is everything whirlpool just said

(i.e. man said something sexist to woman
women said she didn't like what he said and tried to justify not liking it (why did she feel the need? she shouldn't have) by comparing it to racism
man says don't be so silly shut up and says this at length with a narrative involving citing examples)

and then compounded it by coming here to post, presumably hoping for "No, you are NBU"

It's the telling tales on her I don't especially like. And find his idea to use this form as the media to do it, frankly, odd.

sorry: forum

and possibly means rather than media.

It was clearer when it was in my head!

I find it unlikely that OP thought he would get a response of "You Go Girl Mengog!!!" on here, surely

Unless he genuinely can't see how anyone could see anything at all wrong with what he said. Which OK that may be the case.

You hear "Typical...." all the time.

In schools, typical girl - neat handwriting. Typical boy "Messy, poor handwriting". Messages that people pick up and apply. So it becomes an excuse to ignore issues.

Or boys are picked to do things because they are stronger, girls are asked to tidy up because "girls like that".

Messages, messages and stereotypes.It keeps people in boxes and stops them leaving these boxes as people don't expect them to be good at other areas.

"Boys don't do that, girls don't do that".

It's common to hear that. It's a way of keeping people in their place.

op I used to laugh off comments like yours, even when xdp would joke about not wanting a female airline pilot because I thought, ' hahaha some idiots actually believe that but you don't...right?'

On the other hand, now I might say, 'typical woman taking ages to get ready,because it's not like we're disproportionately judged on our appearance over anything else...oh hang on.'

It gets a bit boring after the first 40 years.

It gets a bit boring after the first 40 years. So true. How many times am I supposed to laugh off blonde jokes? Because by my reckoning, I've laughed off my share and yet they keep coming. Now I have a blonde daughter. I'm supposed to teach her to laugh them off too? It is 'low level' and it is 'just a joke' but if I hear how a woman that looks like me is stupid 4000 time in my life, am I allowed to get a bit miffed?

I remember being confused even as a young child, why racism was seen as worse as racism. And I still haven't got my head around it.

I can't help being born female in the same way people don't choose their ethnicity. Hence when a man adds 'bitch' onto an insult I cannot understand why it is not the same as adding a racist term.

I read once that it is likely because racism affects men as well as women and I think that was the best explanation I'm ever likely to get.

I also remember wondering why, when Tony Blair apologised for slavery ( a couple of hundred years after the fact) he didn't also apologise for the millennia-long abuse of women by men. I really do see a direct equivalence.

Don't think anyone's responded to the bit about adverts portraying men as idiots being sexist towards men. Just thought it was worth saying/repeating they aren't. They are perpetuating the idea that men are infantile and need looking after by women. So women should do all that tricksy cleaning stuff and leave the men to the simple things like building rockets and curing cancer. Ergo, they are sexist towards women.

Also YABU OP.

YES MsJuniper.

YABU op. It's not the worst thing that's ever been said but it's the low level discrimination repeated regularly that can help foster attitudes and mindsets that look down on women/see them as inferior which in turn can lead to much worse stuff being undertaken or justified.

I often get pissed off that sexism is shrugged off with 'it's just a laaarf luv' whereas racism is (rightly) taken seriously and not tolerated. I used to be friends with a mixed race guy who was really active in anti racism campaigning - great I thought - until we somehow got talking about street harassment that women face. His reaction - zero sympathy and anger that women were 'stealing' some of the attention that he thought should only be focused on the injustice of racism.

And I chuckle when people moan about women only doctors/gyms/toilets/etc as if men are somehow suffering as a result. These spaces exist precisely because of the ways that some women have been treated by some men. I Appreciate that good men don't like being regarded as a threat to women but we often can't tell right away which ones of you are the good ones.

And, MrsJuniper if men think those adverts are sexist, they can ask the all-female ad teams/all female marketing teams/all female boards of companies who produce them to stop. Oh, hold on, that's really unlikely.

The pretty, capable, hard-working woman; married to fat, ugly, stupid idiot man trope does NOT help women. Once again, it helps men. Even the ally men.

MrsGently, you seem to have quite a low opinion of people, or low expectations at least. None of my friends make offensive 'jokes,' ever. If they say anything hurtful they apologise. They are ordinary decent people who think before opening their mouths. You seem to think it's pretty normal for people to just hurt others and say nasty things, so much so that you reckon we'd be mute if we tried not to. Is that really the world you live in? There are actually other people out there who are genuinely kind and decent and who simply don't comment on other people unless they're saying something supportive. Maybe you should try to find some.

I thought this forum would be the best place to ask as no one would agree with me, and give good reasons for doing so.

The tipping point is the "run fast" comment being described as offensive or racist. I've heard that and similar very low level comments throughout my life and never been offended.

Thinking about it I think we probably clash. I'm self-deprecating and make jokes about being black (she's white) which have been commented, negatively, on by her before.

Anyway, I won't be saying anything like this to her again.

Not every black person has to be offended for something to be racist.

How about not saying anything like that to her or ANY woman ever again? Now you know how offensive it is

I'm self-deprecating and make jokes about being black (she's white) which have been commented, negatively, on by her before.

I think her comment about your "observation" being like racism was odd in the context of you being a black man and her being a white woman.

I find the idea of her giving lessons to a black person about what was "like racism" problematic.

I think there are points of comparison between racism and sexism, but I certainly wouldn't set myself up in a competition of discriminations with someone who has lived their life as a black person (but not a woman) while I have experience of living as a woman (but not a black person).

I think what you said was quite rude, especially if it wasn't a joke, but I think her response was not really appropriate, given that she can't possibly know as much about how racism works as you do.

If she gives you a hard time about making jokes about being black, then she sounds like a pain in the arse.

I do think that people often feel the -ism that directly affects them most strongly is the most important because it is the one that impacts on their daily life.

So for a black male, racism has the greatest impact but for a white female, sexism does.

But both racism and sexism are based on seeing a large segment of society as a homogenous group rather than individuals.

We tend to separate people when there is a good reason (but not always), sometimes that does include race or sex so charities that deal with sickle cell disease tend to work with black people and offer screening to black people.

If you are planning to have children with someone you don't usually do genetic testing unless you are aware of a disease in your family or are part of a community where a genetic disease is prevalent so if you are an Ashkenazi jew you may well be offered testing that wouldn't be offered to someone with no Jewish heritage and that is fine. It is not racist because there is a good reason for it.

Female only Gym and swimming sessions are also there for a good reason. And if sexism didn't exist would not be necessary.

Some jobs are exempt from antidiscrimination legislation and they vary from acting jobs to caring to working in a refuge.

Saying something is 'typical' when it clearly isn't is just something you used, consciously or not, to show that you believe you are superior is not a good reason to say it.

In the words of a friend who just happens to be black and female, "I have been discriminated against because I am a woman far more than for being black".

If you look at apartheid South Africa and the segregated USA black and female have many many similarities, the toilets the privileged group use have more facilities, the education is better and expects you to continue as the privileged group.

When you leave education you will be interviewed for jobs by the privileged group who are looking for someone like themselves.

If you are attacked for no reason then if you are one of the privileged group the crime will be reported and you will be believed, you will not be told it is your fault, not be believed, be arrested as a suspect or asked what you were expecting being in that area, particularly if it is at night.

If you are on trial and guilty your punishment will be less if you are part of the privileged group, if you go to prison you will probably be kept close to home where friends and family can visit if you are part of the privileged group.

Do you know why women's equality was enshrined in law? For a joke.

When legislation was being drafted in the US in 1968 to stop racism and race based discrimination someone included women as a joke group after colour, religion, country of origin etc.

Eh? There are charities which exist for specific ethnic groups, etc. I haven't tested any of these by trying to demand they help white people, but I am pretty sure they would send you away to ask for help from one of the many other services available to your own demographic, just as womens' charities would do if men were to approach them for help. Also, toilets are not segregated by sex, but by gender presentation- I (and most other civilised people) would be fine with people picking whichever toilet they wished to use, and many trans people use toilets without cis people even knowing.

Since your entire argument is based on factually incorrect premises, it is pure nonsense. Also unreasonable, as you sound like a proper dickhead.