AIBU to think Sexism cannot directly be compared to Racism

[Mengog]

Last week a female friend was getting ready for a night out. She was taking an age and I said "Typical Woman, never ready on time".

She took offence to this. Commenting that if woman was replaced by black person then it would be unacceptable.

My argument with her was Racism and Sexism cannot be directly compared. I said it's okay to have female only toilets, hospital ward, gyms at certain times, charity events, even music festivals etc etc. Female only spaces are seen as important.

However, the idea of having toilets only for black people, gyms times for black people or large national charity events were black people were only allowed to take part in would make people uncomfortable.

AIBU to think to directly compare racism to sexism in the way she did is simplistic and inaccurate.

bladibla, it was a silly joke. There is a huge difference between a blatant silly remark as in the op, and out and out sexism/racism. As women, we cannot get offended about every little comment and start screaming feminism. We also have to 'man up', and let the little things pass, or we will end up not being able to leave our beds without getting offended.

"your daughters are old enough to pick up on the fact that their Dad thinks he is some kind of crusader against women"

Yes, that's exactly what I think I am, a crusader against women.

I think discussion in good faith has been left behind when you knowingly answer a point protesting the assumption that guys want to uphold sexism out of self interest (or unwittingly doing so but you know their own minds better than them), with "you are on a crusade against women".

I feel it's destructive to fuel consciously dishonest accusations and unpleasantness, so I'm going to end the discussion here. :)

casual jokes or remarks are not so harmless and can undermine your daughter's confidence.

I personally hate those 'typical woman/typical man' and the 'throw/catch like a girl' but also the 'be a man' etc.

At the weekend my DP said 'jokingly' to our 5yr old DS- 'don't throw it to mummy, she throws like a girl'. So my DS threw me the ball and I pelted it at DP...Like a girl!!

Equally, a girl at work mentioned drops of pee on the floor by the toilet and said "typical man". I corrected her and said "typical dirty git- my Dad, brothers, DP and 5 yr old don't pee on the floor".

Don't say it and don't tolerate it. End of!

If a man said to me "Typical Woman, never ready on time" I would immediately classify him in my head as an utter, utter wanker.

HTH OP.

If yiu think your previous petulant rant counts as "discussion in good faith" you should probably look up the meaning of the words "discussion", "good", and "faith".

So sorry we weren't all delighted to have you come here and patronise us with your bullshit about how "othered" you are by feminism as a man.

Yabu and sexist and as bad as a racist.

There is a line, we are rational thinking humans who should know the difference between something that is genuinely insulting and something that can be laughed off. The remark in the op easily fits in the latter category, it doesn't take much to let something like that go, or have a decent rebuttal. There will always be instances of men/women taking the 'mick' out of each other, just like in other scenarios - geographic jokes for example (the Scots/Welsh/English have ripped on each other for centuries, political correctness will probably never intervene). Instead of teaching our daughters to be offended, to argue every little point that comes out of a bloke's mouth as has been done here, we need to show them that women are not the biggest stereotype of all - angry, bra burning, naggy, whiny people with no sense of humour. And to be honest, I don't find 'taking overtly long' to get ready an insult, better to be late than turn up a state (looking at you, my dear partner).

MrsGently I agree with you that disproportionate reactions to low level stuff does nobody any good.

But I don't think this sounds like that? I think this sounds like someone calling someone on something that's a bit meh, in a fairly low key way. I do it sometimes. A simple 'that's a weird comment' or whatever. Sometimes I can't be bothered, sometimes I can.

The person who is over-reacting here, as far as I can see, is the person who posted a lengthy message about women's spaces and how it's unfair and how it's not like racism at all and etc etc.

Shaska, I have to disagree on 'calling' anyone on the original remark, I do think it's not one worthy of comment or discussion. I must have skimmed the post on 'women's spaces', but discrimination does fall under a large umbrella - not always interchangeable but discrimination none the less. That cannot be reasonably argued against.

yup but until we conquer the stereotypical stuff from day one we have no hope in hell of conquering sexism regardless of how many men ' agree and fight our cause too' and I mean simple shit like 'oh he will break a lot of girls hearts' to my son as a baby when who knows it may well be male hearts he breaks, and 'he dances' 'why does he have a dolly?' etc etc when he was 2 and loved his beany bob and bess, 'been kissing the girls' when he lost his baby teeth and on it goes, we tend to live our whole lives by stereotypes and societal 'norms' and it takes some effort to stop and just think if what we are saying as a seemingly innocuous statement will have a detrimental impact on someone. yes I know sometimes it feels as if being 'PC' can be going too far with some things but honestly it doesn't take too much to just consider what we all often come out with without thinking, is it really appropriate to assume we all meet the 'norms' and to word our innocuous comments accordingly to include all people in society as 'norms'.

not explaining terribly well but the comments on how we should 'just laugh it off' is fine, but really until we all stop 'laughing it off' and challenging stereotypes, in a gentle way or just refusing to engage in them and not laughing them off, we will never change how people respond to each other,there has to be a clear line, we either refuse to engage in racist / sexist / homophobic stereotypes or we collude with them by accepting that some things are ' a joke' or ' not meant that way' when really they all add up to a contribution to society seeing people differently in what should be an equal and equitable society. hence my remarks above about how the 'innocuus' comments start very young.

I agree, but I think the best way to fight stereotyping is by being proactive, taking negativity, owning the hurtful aspects, and turning it around. Sitting around, getting angry and whining about how awful and inconsiderate blokes are will never change anything. I don't want my son growing up in a world where being a girl is sneered upon, but I fear feminism makes some men worried about opening their mouths at all, of course then we get idiots like that maninism party. So I'll pick my battles and not expect the people around me to be 100 pc.

I agree about picking battles. But I also think women have the right to choose which battles we pick. And if someone wants to object to 'typical woman, obsessed with appearance' then fair enough, imo. It might not be what I would do, but I don't class it as sitting around whining - in fact, the opposite!

I'm sorry I may have missed your point about discrimination - I don't feel women's spaces are discriminatory, because they don't offer a priviledge. Men also have men's toilets, for example, and a woman doctor isn't a better doctor, she just may be better suited to a woman who for whatever reason prefers that. I don't know if that's what you meant though!

Your last post is confusing Mrs. The woman in the OP challenged the sexism she heard, she didn't 'sit around whining' about it. Unless we challenge it, how can we change it?

Oh and nothing is 'just a joke.' The jokes a person or society tells say a huge amount about them.

But the point I'm making is, was the remark in the op truly sexism? It could be construed as offensive, but I think it's trying a bit hard. Why should women get offended at 'they take longer than men to get ready'? In terms of sexism in the modern era, I find that one to be very very low on the list, to the point of the ofendee being quite pedantic to make an issue of it. That is the point I'm trying to make, not every little remark needs to be challenged, or become deliberately argumentative over.

The reason the getting ages to get ready stereotype pissed me off, personally, apart from the fact that it is very often not true (I know loads of men who take ages and loads of women who don't) is WHY would a woman take ages to get ready? Well because she is attempting to meet an almost impossible beauty standard set by media, society, peers and imbued by herself. And then when she tries, she gets the piss taken out of her for it.

So for eg

At my work do, men were told to wear "black tie" failing that business wear acceptable, no jeans or trainers.
Women were told to "dress to impress".
Both men and women know what the expectations are around how men and women will dress, how much effort will have gone into their hair, makeup, clothes choice, shoe choice etc etc etc. This will vary between individuals obviously but the net effort will be much more for the females if they are to meet the "standard".

Then when the women have done all that, and tried their best to do something that for many is about no more than trying to meet this standard, they will be accused of vanity and self obsession.

And to top it all, if they get it "wrong" - if their choices are not quite right - the dress a bit too short, the shoes not quite good enough to walk without a bit of a wobble, the makeup a bit thick, the hair not great, or they are getting on a bit, or are a bit fat, or don't have enough bust & etc and so on, in many environments some of the men will take the piss out of them anyway.

So it's a ridiculous bind. Women are set a standard, that they will often fail and have the piss taken out of them to their face or behind their back for doing so, and they also get the piss taken out of them for trying.

Whole thing sucks. IMO.

Rant over was it as good as the OPs?

Ah but we differ as I see it as a fairly clear 'oh you women and your appearance! we all know what you're all like!' thing. Yes, a low level one, and as I've said, probably not something I'd bother to comment on unless the person saying it had already wound me up.

Stuff like that does annoy me though because it's so doubled-edged. The idea of it being silly or annoying that women are appearance conscious but of course we're also expected to be immaculately turned out at all times.

• it is up to individual people to decide whether things offend them or not. And whether they can be bothered to say anything. And it is fine for people to be inconsistent in this.

So the women in the OP felt offended and decided to say something. Fine, that's up to her isn't it. Why shouldn't she say something.

shaska that was much more succinct than me

Oh. Whirlpool you said what I said but you said it waaaay better.

And crosspost again!

A negative remark (typical woman, never ready on time) was made about a woman on the basis that the negative behaviour was to be expected of women.

The remark wasn't that women take longer to get ready, it was that they are always late (implying poor time management - a negative).

A negative remark was made on the basis that a negative behaviour is to be expected of that particular class of people - in this case, women. Why yes, that's discriminatory.

I'm really curious, inMansplicable - how did you manage to be immune to socialisation? It could save us all a lot of time if you could share that info with us.

Its a fair point, it is not for anyone to dictate another's point of view on what's offensive. I'm just concerned we are in a society of supreme political correctness, where any 'off' comment can be considered offensive on the bases of gender, race, sexuality etc, that any social commentary is like walking on eggshells. It's not about agreeing with saying anything you want due to freedom of speech, but neither do we need to over analysis everything said either.

lol @ mutual appreciation society