AIBU to think Sexism cannot directly be compared to Racism

[Mengog]

Last week a female friend was getting ready for a night out. She was taking an age and I said "Typical Woman, never ready on time".

She took offence to this. Commenting that if woman was replaced by black person then it would be unacceptable.

My argument with her was Racism and Sexism cannot be directly compared. I said it's okay to have female only toilets, hospital ward, gyms at certain times, charity events, even music festivals etc etc. Female only spaces are seen as important.

However, the idea of having toilets only for black people, gyms times for black people or large national charity events were black people were only allowed to take part in would make people uncomfortable.

AIBU to think to directly compare racism to sexism in the way she did is simplistic and inaccurate.

As others have said, they are not directly comparable but are equally serious.

And I do find that it's often extremely illuminating to go through some piece of sexist rhetoric and replace "woman" with "black" and see how it reads. Normally stuff that might pass under the radar of most people when applied to women becomes obviously shocking when put in the context of race instead (which is not to say that covert racism isn't still an absolutely huge issue in our society - it is - but overt racism is less tolerated than over sexism).

A friend of mine does a similar exercise with her primary year 6 children (she teaches in the west country where there is enormous amounts of prejudice against the Traveller community). She writes "GYpsies are", then gets the kids to come up with suggestions. Once the blackboard is covered, she crosses out "Gypsies" and replaces it with "Blacks". Instant storm of protest from the kids... "But that's really racist, miss..." To which she then replies, "Precisely, yes, it is racist. So why is it acceptable to say the same things about Travellers?" Brilliant consciousness raising exercise, gets the point across really well.

I presume you are a man.

Your trying to enforce your views onto a woman regarding what is and isn't a sexist comment and what is and isn't acceptable in terms of gender stereotyping is the perfect example of male privilege. If your friend tells you she finds your gender stereotyping unacceptable, why don't you try listening to her rather than defending your position.

Yabvvu

Saying you can't compare two things that several obvious points of comparison is just twattish.

If you had said "you can't compare racism to a kettle", then I'd think you had a point.

But clearly it's very easy to compare two different forms of discrimination. Your comparison might lead you to believe that they are not very similar, or have important distinctions.

But to say they can't be compared is both stupid and patronising.

What you were really trying to say is - "racism is important, bad discrimination done by terrible racists. Sexism is unimportant, amusing discrimination done by me."

Your initial comment about her being a typical woman was just lame and made you look like a dick.

Your follow up lecture about how unimportant sexism is was really sexist.

And confirmed that you are, indeed, a dick.

I'm not saying sexism isn't serious. However, I honestly don't think replacing sex with race works.

We accept asking for a female Dr is okay but asking for a white Dr isn't. Or asking for a female police officer is okay but asking for a black one isn't, or taxi drivers etc.

If she was unhappy at my stereotype about the amount of time she took to get ready. Fair enough. It was the comparison to race which I didn't think was valid.

Women, in comparison to men, are known for spending more time getting ready. Black people, as far as I'm aware, aren't. I'm not sure why on earth your friend thinks there is a parallel here.

Additionally, your friend seems very po-faced and joyless. I can't see it would be much fun to be around her.

But there is a comparison when it comes to stereotyping. Yes of course there are differences between racism and sexism in terms of providing women only spaces and services, they're needed for a reason. However, stereotyping and discrimination against someone because of their gender is as offensive as doing so on the grounds of race, religion, sexuality or disability. If you can't see that then I think you might be a bit simple.

Well, part of the reason behind, say women preferring a female doctor, or liking to have women only spaces for certain things, is because many men are known to not be entirely trustworthy in their actions towards women's bodies, and many women, at times when they may be vulnerable may reasonably feel safer if the person they are with is a woman.

A request for a white doctor would have no basis in fact. White doctors are not, as far as I know, any better at their jobs than anyone else. Black doctors are not statistically more likely to misdiagnose you or cause you harm. Whereas a woman taxi driver is, statisically, a whole lot less likely to sexually assault you. Which, especially if you'd been sexually assaulted before, you might be a bit sensitive about.

Do you feel that men are discriminated against by these womens spaces you mention, OP?

You're raising ridiculous points. In THIS case, your lazy stereotyping is just plain sexism. She was comparing it because she obviously knows you don't take casual sexism seriously and you do racism. She is right, because instead of addressing your sexism, you're addressing her argument. Classic whataboutery.

It also pisses me off because in a multi-generational sample in our house, DD (4), GM (70) and me are all halfway down the road before two GFs, and one DF. In one GF's case, a good 15 minutes ahead of him being ready.

I don't think yabu, not completely anyway. It can be comparative in some sense, not in others.

Oh, and your friend needs to lighten up!

The fact you made that comment in the first place suggests that you don't think sexism is serious.

It sounds like she wasn't happy about the stereotype, explained to you how it might cause offence, and your reaction was to start an argument.

Maybe you should give some thought to why we accept asking for a female doctor, and why female only spaces are 'seen to be important' - I note you don't just say 'are important'.

Whenever this discussion comes up, someone always compares asking for a female doctor to asking for a white one. The appropriate comparison, given the history of who was the oppresor and who was the oppressed, is someone asking for a black doctor.

it isn't sexist to point out genuine differences between men and women. Hence the lack of availability of smear tests for men is not a sexism issue.

There are far fewer real differences between races, than between genders, hence it is easier to categorise anything that appears to differentiate by race as being racist.

"Trousers for white people" is clearly racist as different races can wear the same clothes.

"Trousers for women" is not sexist as women are physically different shapes to men.

"Trousers for girls (0-5 years)" IS sexist because girls aren't a different shape to boys.

Gendered baby products are totally sexist also.

It was the comparison to race which I didn't think was valid.

So instead of accepting that your friend was offended by your shit sexist joke, you decided to lecture her about what sexism is.

Slow hand clap for you.

Hello Ice!

To take the example of professions: there are a few professions where it is reasonable to ask for someone of a specific sex - doctor, because of physical examinations, worker in a women's refuge, etc. But for most professions it would be utterly unreasonable - someone demanding a male airline pilot, or demanding that their pfb not be taught by a male primary school teacher or cared for by a male nursery worker...

And (no surprise here) that's exactly how the equalities act works - requests for individual exemptions have to be made on a case by case basis backed up by some sort of defensible argument. The idea that all requests for a worker of one sex are equally acceptable is a strawman argument.

And someone always pops up to offer the helpful observation that people who give thought to stuff like this are 'joyless' and need to 'lighten up'. So yeah, thanks for that.

Its the fact that you are stereotyping that is the issue. Racism and Sexism and other isms partly work by dehumanising individuals and assigning them a set of group characteristics based on a subjective impressions. You aren't seeing them as a individual but as a set of imposed characteristics.

The similarity is in the thought process that objectifies people and takes away their individuality.

The appropriate comparison, given the history of who was the oppresor and who was the oppressed, is someone asking for a black doctor.

Exactly.

And if a black patient preferred to be treated by a black doctor, then that would be OK and not "reverse racism".

The idea that making lazy sexist jokes is joyful is quite amusing.

"Oh you know the guy - he's just brilliant. Always saying hilarious things about women and the typical things they do."

but lets not forget that sexism effects both genders (I know lots and lots of females that would go ape shit if anything remotly sexist is said about women but they would not bat an eye lid if it was against men and for some reason cannot grasp that sexism isnt just a female problem (they even cat call/ wolf whistle men but god forbid a male doing it to one of them and i just get blank stares when i call them hypocrites and then argue that their is no such thing as male sexism.......

A big fat hell yes to everything bathtimefunkster has said.

I hav

Worridmum I agree with you. That is why I always behave in such a way that if you replace the word man with woman, would I be offended, if the answer is yes, I'm doing something wrong. I make a point of never gender stereotyping men, because it's horseshit and also because I don't like people doing it about women.

lets not forget that sexism effects both genders

Exactly, let's bear in mind that sexism is advantageous for men and they have a lot of reasons to make sure it doesn't come to an end.

YABU.

Is it because you think that racism is 'worse' than sexism?