MNHQ

[Waltermittythesequel]

I've been a member of MN for almost a decade (I had to re-reg after the hacking debacle). I know there has always been contention and controversy but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever been sickened by MN members and by you, HQ.

Over the last few days there has been thread after thread bashing Ireland, being xenophobic, insulting and downright nasty and you, HQ, have let them all stand.

I believe now, that the English attitude to Ireland is unfortunately as bad as it ever was and it is perpetrated by business like yours for not taking a stand against it. I can only assume you agree with the shit being spouted.

I have loved it here but I can't engage on a forum where such behaviour is tolerated without even an attempt to do something about it.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourselves. I'd like to say it's been fun but frankly, the last few days have negated any enjoyment I've ever had here.

I've just read two threads in active conversations that have been the straws that broke the camel's back.

I'm not expecting anyone to give a shit about my flouncing, by the way. I'm not expecting attention. I AM expecting a barrage of abuse and oh-so-hilarious insults. It doesn't bother me.

For a 'supportive' website, MN, you've really let yourself down.

I want that freedom of speech. I am very glad I live in a country where holocaust denial is legal.

Hate speech is/can be illegal. Slander, defamation, libel, can all be legally challenged. Speech inciting violence is illegal, abusive, threatening or speech designed to harass or distress can be too. Indecent, corruptive to minors speech can be illegal.

I'm not arguing for or against censorship but please lets not pretend we have any absolute right to say what we think!

And yes of course there were threads bashing voters for other parties, (especially UKIP and SNP if I remember). And there are many other groups who get attacked - I just picked a couple.

I do get the difference between legally defined protected characteristics and other things but I still believe that if it is open and above board we can educate. If it is shut down then someone is acting as the Thought Police - and that worries me more.

The hatred/abuse of transgendered people is pretty bad at the moment too. You can abuse them all you want and if you complain their post is deleted 2 days later when nobody's reading it any more anyway.

See people always say that about debate and educating them....its not the responsibility of the minority to educate people out of offensive stereotypes. They can if they want too, but they can also just want them to shut the fuck up!

No of course it is not the responsibility of anyone to educate anyone else. And I would quite like people to shut up as well. But education does go on - that's the point. I said that I have learnt from these sort of conversations.

I am not saying that if someone calls me a fat bitch I should educate them on the details of eating disorders. Or if I don't get a job because I am nearly 60 and competing with a load of 20 somethings I should smile and give them a lecture on equality.

BUT if the words are out there, sooner or later there will be a discussion and people will learn.

But MNHQ are trigger happy with the delete button. Only if it's 'Not in the spirit of MN', break the site rules and it gets to stay Real (hurtful), important subjects get left standing, bit of harmless fun, poof.

hi I'm Anglo-Irish (Irish mum, Irish passport but English accent) and I just want to give a little perspective on this. There us UNDOUBTEDLY anti Irish feeling in the UK. So I'm not surprised anonymous abuse and prejudice is revealed here. My boyfriends mum told me (not knowing my Irish roots) how she couldn't stand the Irish, colleage once (very lefty, but army family) how Irish were so dreadful. My mum's got loads of stories and experieces too. Dreadful stuff, admitedly less so in recent years.

BUT ... as someone with an English accent, I can tell you there is plenty of shit that gets thrown the English's way in Ireland. Ive had derisory protest songs sung loudly in front of me when in Ireland... a general unpleasantness when my accent is clocked. not by everyone, but enough for me to be a bit wary. i know Irish history, sokind of get it, but it's a bit depressing. Friend (another second gen) tells a story about going to Dublin with her dad, and the service she recieved when she spoke to shop assistants as being uber frosty. When her dad opened his mouth, everyone was charm its self.

BitOfFun Thank you for that lovely post . That is how I everyone I know is feeling re: the referendum result as well.

Fairfat - I've seen both sides of what you mention. It sucks whenever, wherever it happens.

But the difference is that the presence of anti-Irish sentiment from some British bigots is/was being denied by other British MNers.

I don't think the presence of anti-British sentiment from some Irish bigots is/was being denied by other Irish MNers.

It was the denial of the bigotry - the refusal to acknowledge that there was a problem at all - that was the final straw, iyswim.

Walter don't leave. I was totally pissed off on the IRA thread last night and was sure someone had just came on to stir up trouble but when I search the OP I found that it was a regular who is actually a teacher!

Today I have decided that at least now I know the true colours of a minority of the people on here and I don't think they represent all of the UK.

and was sure someone had just came on to stir up trouble but when I search the OP I found that it was a regular who is actually a teacher!

Perhaps you could come back to the thread and say that, letit. I'm not being goady - the limits of my involvement were on that thread, but I thought the way the OP was treated by some people was bang out of order.

BitOfFun - cheers, lovely post...my sentiments too.

walter, fuck the begrudgers/simpleton posters.

I've just been back to the IRA thread and seen that my comment has been deleted - a comment which was in no way abusive or xenophobic, though I daresay it was rude - but posted in response to the people on that thread who were being totally venomous to the OP.

I'm pretty pissed off it was deleted, actually, considering the context of the thread.

So I'd say that MN's response has been reasonably robust, at the very least.

Jesus, that IRA thread is the biggest load of whataboutry crap I have read in years. I had to stop reading, what some posters don't know could fill a library.

I understand the OP now. The sneering undertone is palpable.

Either the OP in the IRA thread had no clue, or was deliberately goading.

It can't be both, and one is not a crime.

Over 800 years and the English still don't know when to fuck off from where they're not wanted!

This was on a thread discussing Ireland's abortion l

See people always say that about debate and educating them....its not the responsibility of the minority to educate people out of offensive stereotypes. They can if they want too, but they can also just want them to shut the fuck up

No of course it is not the responsibility of anyone to educate anyone else. And I would quite like people to shut up as well. But education does go on - that's the point. I said that I have learnt from these sort of conversations

That's the dilemma - to disengage, delete and wish people who don't know anything about it would STFU with their ignorant and hurtful comments

or.....

To engage, educate and tell the bigots exactly what's wrong with their comments, opinions and the effect it has on people.

People say "it's only words, they don't matter". That's not true. It can affect people who are already in a vulnerable state and in a crap place. They see that others don't care so what's the point. Other people can pick up the message that their bigotry is "acceptable" (especially if it's in a paper like the Sun (yes, Hopkins)) and act on their bigotry in real life - as the minority group have been "othered" and seen as unimportant - as "not us".

It is a dilemma. Yes - some people learn from debates, have their views changed, challenged and they learn about things they never knew about. That's one of the great things about MN - you hear from different people and you have your views challenged.

OTOH - there are times you just wish the bigots would STFU. You've done the debate 1000 times already, said your piece and have had it with having the same debate again - and having to justify yourself to others.

It is incredibly hard having the same thing again and again -and having to play the role of educator to people again. I know that is helps people - and I know that I have helped people learn about trans issues. I bet there are other people from other groups who have helped people learn about other issues. But it gets tiring. (especially on here where I think I am on of the only "out" transwomen".)

It must be incredibly depressing to read crap about your country and ignorant views. I haven't read the Irish threads but if people from Ireland are saying the posts are offensive - well they are. At what point does that offense become deletable / not worth engaging with / xenophobic - that's the question.

You're comparing one comment with several overtly offensive threads. And that comment was made in response to one of them.

Seriously, if a whole group are telling you there is a problem, its not ok to keep shouting them down and telling them there isn't. You can't be offensive to the Irish in a way you would never dream of being to any other minority group, and you can' dismiss it because you either don't see it or don't think it matters.

Ubik1 is that all you have to whinge about? One response to several disgraceful posts about Irish women and abortion, not to mention all the other xenophobic and ignorant crap that's been spouted on various threads over the past few days.
Here's a tip. Get the fuck over it! Why are you even on these threads? Hoping to get a bit of a rise eh?

rooty I'm glad your post was deleted. A couple of your ?others should have been as well.
As for the OP being all faux ignorant, I think not. She was deliberately goading by insulting to get a reaction. She hasn't been back to either explain or apologise!
Somebody mentioned she was a teacher and a regular poster, so therefore she couldn't be posting in anything other than good faith.
How can one deduce this I wonder?

Listen, as two countries we have a long history. A very difficult one. Of course there will be implicit biases and hidden prejudice.

A lot of current work in cultural competency is looking at how we need to own our own prejudice and be able to name it in order to neutralise it.

I grew up believing all English people were oppressive, sneering and bigoted to Irish people. I came to England to live in my early 20's and found this to be manifestly untrue as a generalisation but true in some contexts with some people.

If you want to test your hidden prejudices, just stop for a moment and let your mind fill in the blanks..

All Irish people are...
most Irish people are..
Irish people think...
Irish people are the sort who..
Irish women are..
Irish men are..
Ireland is the sort of place where..
Irish people mostly think that English people are..
the Irish health system is..
the church in ireland is.. etc

And repeat for English or any group. You don't have to believe the first thought you notice, it's just a verbal fragment, evidence of something you have heard or read. We can't control these thoughts, they are behaviourally conditioned and can't be deleted. They're often automatic and implicit.

If we know our biases, we can choose to step away from them and act in accordance with our values.

Having said all that, I do think MNHQ are inconsistent but it doesn't bother me with this topic, but it does with disabilism.

I'm not trying to do anything.

I'm just pointing out that there has been bad behaviour from a few posters.

Why am I even on here? Why shouldn't I be?

Ah bollox to all this shite.

I am just surprised by it. Where I live which is in London with 80% non white British etc the issue of whether someone is Irish seems really trivial when we've women fully covered in the burka, hindu primary schools, Polish shops and just about the whole range of humans it is possible to have and everyone on the whole seems to live very happily together.

The idea that we reserve some special hate for the Irish who are so similar to us compared to those who've escaped from the desert in Somalia or who think women should never show their face never mind their ankles is just surprising but certainly England/Ireland has not had a great history. I think we are in one of the better phases and long may it last as we have much more in common than differences. Personal nastiness to anyone is never a good idea and websites can censor how they choose within reason. If they always kow tow to particular posters' complaints against one view point you end up with people stopping posting because they know that XYZ view is not tolerated there.