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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

MNHQ

154 replies

Waltermittythesequel · 25/05/2015 18:03

I've been a member of MN for almost a decade (I had to re-reg after the hacking debacle). I know there has always been contention and controversy but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever been sickened by MN members and by you, HQ.

Over the last few days there has been thread after thread bashing Ireland, being xenophobic, insulting and downright nasty and you, HQ, have let them all stand.

I believe now, that the English attitude to Ireland is unfortunately as bad as it ever was and it is perpetrated by business like yours for not taking a stand against it. I can only assume you agree with the shit being spouted.

I have loved it here but I can't engage on a forum where such behaviour is tolerated without even an attempt to do something about it.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourselves. I'd like to say it's been fun but frankly, the last few days have negated any enjoyment I've ever had here.

I've just read two threads in active conversations that have been the straws that broke the camel's back.

I'm not expecting anyone to give a shit about my flouncing, by the way. I'm not expecting attention. I AM expecting a barrage of abuse and oh-so-hilarious insults. It doesn't bother me.

For a 'supportive' website, MN, you've really let yourself down.

OP posts:
6Musiclover · 25/05/2015 20:11

Wow, MNHQ) Mealy mouthed doesn't even cover that response. I can think of a few other words I could useAngry

OrlandoWoolf · 25/05/2015 20:11

MNHQ, the problem isn't always specific posts, nor do the posts specifically break the guidelines. It is a bigger picture, a general attitude

I suspect that's the same thing for other groups as well. I have had the same response when posting about trans threads. It's an attitude.

At what point does upsetting people and causing offence become breaking guidelines and censorship? Where does the right to debate stop compared to the right to not be upset?

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 25/05/2015 20:15

For the millionth fucking time, being offended is not the same as being a victim of xenophobia. Which is what, AGAIN, the OP said she was suffering.

The OP is offended BECAUSE she is the victim of xenophobia. YOU don't get to tell her that she wrong in her assessment or in her feelings about it.

LotusLight · 25/05/2015 20:20

It's their site. They can be as arbitrary as they like. If people complain a lot about something then as you want to keep your users happy to censor. If other people perhaps on the other side suck it up or are more robust rather than going crying to mummy then they find they are censored more than someone with a different view. It is how it works on line.

I am at a very extreme end of freedom of speech whether that be cartoons of the Prophet or saying there is no God or any feminist or other view some people hate. However websites are commercial enterprises and they make whatever rules they choose. We are all free to post elsewhere on line with people whose views are the same as ours (although that would be very dull and we would have fewer people to convert to our own respective causes).

Ubik1 · 25/05/2015 20:21

Exactly Orlando.

I've seen threads about:
*the Scots
*benefits claimants
*Catholics
*muslims
*transgender people
*immigration

All these threads contain opinions that will offend someone at some point.
These are all minority groups. So do we avoid discussing any of this? Who gets to decide?

Diamond23 · 25/05/2015 20:21

I give up.
It's no wonder MNHQ are ignoring you.

Ubik1 · 25/05/2015 20:21

YOU don't get to tell her that she wrong in her assessment or in her feelings about it.

Why on earth not?

GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter · 25/05/2015 20:22

Ethnicity, sexuality, gender, disability and *trans status are protected characteristics. Might that be a basis for deciding?

LotusLight · 25/05/2015 20:22

"those who shout the loudest are getting the most deletions "
That's the nub of it and any website is allowed to do that. It's very unfair because robust freedom of speech women who don't want other women censored even if they are saying it's fine for women to go abroad to fight for ISIS or whatever or housewifery is a higher calling end up censored and those with what you might term very weak mental ability to withstand criticism whose feelings are easily hurt get to control and censor but c'est la vie.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 25/05/2015 20:28

Why on earth not?

If a disabled person complained about disabilist posts would you say "I don't see a problem, you are not allowed to be offended and you have definitely not been discriminated against/ they aren't disabilist?

Would you tell someone that you've decided that they aren't allowed to be offended by racist posts because you dont find them personally racist?

Since when do you get to inform people they can't be offended?

pandarific · 25/05/2015 20:29

I'm not sure any threads merit deletion - I think speaking freely (if ignorantly) is important, because people learn. None of us are perfect and all of us are ignorant on some things - I learned a lot on a thread about donor children once and in retrospect I was posting ignorantly, expecting my experience to match up to other people's, when actually I was making assumptions about the lives of a group I knew nothing about (donor children).

So I think it would be counterintuitive to delete threads, and a bit too close to censorship for my liking. That said, MNHQ should be more proactive in asking posters who break the guidelines (or are reported for posting offensive remarks) to sort themselves out.

It's really not about censorship, just about the... invisibility of an issue sometimes, if you're not directly impacted. And a lot of Irish people on here have noticed a certain tone from some posters on threads that is really disrespectful. Just let's not dismiss the issue as people being oversensitive - minimising is bad, right?

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 25/05/2015 20:30

These are all minority groups. So do we avoid discussing any of this? Who gets to decide?

You can talk about minority groups all you like. What you can't do is tell an entire minority group that they are weird and backwards and talk utter rubbish about them as a group.

OrlandoWoolf · 25/05/2015 20:30

Would you tell someone that you've decided that they aren't allowed to be offended by racist posts because you dont find them personally racist

That happens a lot on here. People say they don't see that a post was upsetting / offensive so it couldn't have been and the person who was upset shouldn't feel that way. It's dismissing someone's feelings - you may not think it's upsetting but that doesn't mean it isn't - especially if it is about "your group".

OrlandoWoolf · 25/05/2015 20:31

What you can't do is tell an entire minority group that they are weird and backwards and talk utter rubbish about them as a group

Have you told some people that?

Especially some FWR feminists.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 25/05/2015 20:32

No, I haven't. I've been told that though.

SakuraSakura · 25/05/2015 20:32

Totally agree. One of the first comments on the 'well done Ireland, now can you sort out your abortion laws' thread Confused, was about how Ireland is the place that time forgot, completely backwards. So offensive! Don't know how people make such sweeping, generalised, statements about an entire nation. They are popping up again & again. I just don't read those threads anymore.

Ubik1 · 25/05/2015 20:35

winter
With respect
People can be offended - it's up to them.

But yes their assessment can be wrong. Sometimes with more discussion and different viewpoints a different conclusion can be reached.
Sometimes people can be wrong about many, many things and then be absolutely right about a single crucial thing. And people need to hear it.

That's why freedom of speech is so important. That's why you will always find debate challenging.

Scaredycat3000 · 25/05/2015 20:37

How can You shout louder if you have nothing to report? Settled in for the evening, glass in hand, read 13 pages only 10 more, click on next and poof 'Not in the spirt of MN'.

FatherBiggley · 25/05/2015 20:40

Fuck being offended, it's not about offence. If you're in the position of not experiencing the racism you can get in England for being Irish then good for you. I'm NIrish and have been physically assaulted here because of it. The comments and threads here fuel the perception that gets me assaulted.

geekaMaxima · 25/05/2015 20:43

GeorgeYates - I entirely agree MNHQ should use the set of protected characteristics as the basis for deciding whether verbal abuse constitutes a breach of guidelines. It would be both objective and transparent, and also make it easier for MNers to decide whether to report a post.

The list is a bit longer than mentioned, though (note the clarification from gov.uk that race includes national origin, which is the issue here):

  • age
  • being or becoming a transsexual person
  • being married or in a civil partnership
  • being pregnant or having a child
  • disability
  • race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
  • religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
sex
  • sexual orientation
LotusLight · 25/05/2015 20:45

In general English/Irish relations are some of the best in history at the moment so let's not spoil that.

I think there's a right to offend and I applaud websites which allow that - it's called free speech. It is what Charlie H was all about. No need to be rude though. You can say abortion is fine but not that those against it must be subnormal. You can state facts like until 1971 a girl of 12 and a boy of 14 could marry in Ireland (that is a fact). Just stick to facts.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 25/05/2015 20:45

Of course they can be wrong. But you don't have one person saying I'M OFFENDED. What you have is quite a few members of a group agreeing that they, as a group, feel like there have been a lot of not-ok posts, and that they feel this is seen as acceptable.

And you appear to be proving them right by telling them ALL that they are wrong and should put up with it because freedom of speech is more important. W
Well fine, thats an argument to make, But its not the case when its other minorities making the same point, is it? And you wouldn't be calling it freedom of speech if you swapped Irish with any other group at all.....

GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter · 25/05/2015 20:52

That isn't a fact LotusLight. That's completely incorrect. You are confusing canon law with Irish civil law.

Ubik1 · 25/05/2015 20:57

Can you stop the hyperbole?

I think the 'backward' comment made by one poster should have been deleted.

There comment about how after 800 years 'the English' still haven't learned to butt out of Ireland's affairs...

Is there some sort if scale of oppression one has to consult before we decide how offensive we can be?

LotusLight · 25/05/2015 20:58

I did look it up recently as someone on Radio 4 quite knowledgable was quoting that but happy to be proven wrong:
"In the Republic of Ireland however, the legal age for marriage remained at 14 for boys and 12 for girls until 1st January 1975, when it was raised to 16."

(written for British Genealogy)

I know the Catholic Code of Canon law has age 14 girls and 16 boys or the age of consent/marriage inthe state in which you are resident if higher.