MNHQ

[Waltermittythesequel]

I've been a member of MN for almost a decade (I had to re-reg after the hacking debacle). I know there has always been contention and controversy but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever been sickened by MN members and by you, HQ.

Over the last few days there has been thread after thread bashing Ireland, being xenophobic, insulting and downright nasty and you, HQ, have let them all stand.

I believe now, that the English attitude to Ireland is unfortunately as bad as it ever was and it is perpetrated by business like yours for not taking a stand against it. I can only assume you agree with the shit being spouted.

I have loved it here but I can't engage on a forum where such behaviour is tolerated without even an attempt to do something about it.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourselves. I'd like to say it's been fun but frankly, the last few days have negated any enjoyment I've ever had here.

I've just read two threads in active conversations that have been the straws that broke the camel's back.

I'm not expecting anyone to give a shit about my flouncing, by the way. I'm not expecting attention. I AM expecting a barrage of abuse and oh-so-hilarious insults. It doesn't bother me.

For a 'supportive' website, MN, you've really let yourself down.

Anyway
FwIW
I think it must be hard to be Irish and seeing so many threads about your country containing some posts which were crass and ignorant and some which seemed designed to offend. And some beyond the pale which should have been deleted.

But please don't spur a further delete-fest. Otherwise this forum will just be about weaning.

So

I can stop with the hyperbole if you can stop with the minimising and justifications.

Is there some sort if scale of oppression one has to consult before we decide how offensive we can be

Yeah, you have to be nicer to the descendents of people you traded as slaves than to the people you just occupied and starved. That kind of thing? Your question is of itself rather offensive.

Sorry celibate or whatever your name is but the OP has made quite a blanket statement about mn members and how they've made her sick. I resent being tarred with the same brush as a few individuals for no reason at all.

To be clear, I'm not calling for any deletions at all. I'm just saying you should stop telling people what they can be offended by.

LotusLight - not sure where that odd info about age of consent came from. From a history of reproductive health in Ireland:

"Feb Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1935 is enacted. ... The Act makes it a crime to have "unlawful carnal knowledge" with girls under the age of 17, thereby raising the age of consent to sex from 16 to 17."

Yeah, you have to be nicer to the descendents of people you traded as slaves than to the people you just occupied and starved. That kind of thing? Your question is of itself rather offensive.

Ah - so there we have it.

Ok. You win the Internet.

Thanks. This might be an illustration then of propaganda that a pro gay marriage expert on Radio 4 (from Ireland) referred to the 12/14 thing to illustrate how marriage has changed even between 1970 and now.

I agree with Winter - we should not tell people what they should and should not be offended by and given my own Irish ancestry I am certainly not in favour of any generalisations against the irish although I stand by my comment that compared to my life time and particularly my childhood we are very lucky at the good Irish/English relations we have today.

People can be offended by a range of things. No-one os telling anyone what to feel. The issue is whether others should then be silenced as a consequence.

There have been some pretty rude, agrressive and ignorant posts about the Irish - but they have mostly been challenged by the majority of reasonable people. There have also been threads about the Scots, the English, the older generation, Tory voters and others in which some posts have been upsetting to me personally and or unpleasant about a group.

The best way to deal with it is to debate it - not insist it is deleted.

Ok. You win the Internet.

Cool! Is there a trophy? Or just cash?

you get a badge.

Orange is right.
Particularly Tory voters picked on. There is a core group of left wing posters who think the left has a monopoly on caring and use very abusive terms about the Conservative majority in the UK we tolerate it because it proves how much better the right are than the left but it goes on all the time.

The issue is whether others should then be silenced as a consequence

And this is the problem - either you have freedom of speech or you don't. This is a part of the Katie Hopkins issue. Yes, she has the right to say her stuff but if it's in the media like the Sun, it's almost seen as "normalising" views - and all the effects such views have on people.

As has been pointed out, hearing other people with the same views can make your views seem "acceptable" and can, in some cases,make you act on them often violently. If you hear a lot of "gay or trans bashing", you might well think your view on LGBT people is ok and then you might have no concerns about attacking "others".

But where do you draw the line? What is acceptable and what is not? To some degree, I suspect it's led by the people who use MN and advertisers. If there are too many unpalatable views, they lose members.

Some areas are those where you can't please everyone. If it's a controversial area, some people will find things very offensive and call for deletions / a halt to the "debate - if it is that - and not just a bashing thread" whilst people on the other side will be upset and cry foul if they get deleted. Caught in the middle.

Right now I have 2 threads hidden. Both trans threads. There are also 2 trans threads on FWR that I am ignoring. It's incredibly hard for me to read them and I personally think they are transphobic. In general - not specific threads. But the people have the right to post on there and to debate issues. I just hope that other people don't read them and think it's ok to abuse transpeople.

That's my perspective on an area that affects me. I have no doubt that there are other people from other minority groups who have similar issues.

MNHQ must have a hard time trying to maintain that balance between freedom of speech and the effect such a freedom has on people.

I think they do a reasonable job although people with far too thin skins can end up censoring the internet. Another example is scientology who are not backward in coming forward with litigation on line.

Luckily free speech is a many headed beast and if people are censored in one place they can speak elsewhere. View will out even if muslims are crying into pillows because they have such a weak invented God she gets in a flap because someone draws her picture.

Freedom of speech is a myth, there is no such thing. Never has been.

As an aside, are Tory-voters calling themselves a minority now? I'm not sure you can do that when you won.....

I don't agree. The internet has made it very hard to censor. I know. I've litigated against those whose posts we are trying to remove. You stop one and 100 emerge.

We Tory voters are the wonderful majority, the true voice of the people about to deliver to our one nation 5 years of prosperity.

It's a good thing there weren't any threads bashing Labour / Tory / Lib Dem / UKIP /SNP /Green supporters during and after the elections

An oasis of calm if I remember...

Hard to censor is not the same as freedom of speech.

It's a good thing there weren't any threads bashing Labour / Tory / Lib Dem / UKIP /SNP /Green supporters during and after the elections

Membership of a political party (or voting for one) is not the same thing as a race/nationality/sexuality etc. Poor analogy/straw man.

But reducing the question to "leave it or delete it" is a false dichotomy. Policing verbal abuse that is racist, disability, sexist, etc. can be done in more ways than deletion.

Imagine:

1. post is reported
2. MNHQ checks if it constitutes verbal abuse of a protected characteristic group (as legally defined).
3. if yes, determine level according to severity of abuse. Upgrade one level if a post has previously been reported for same reason on the same thread:

• level 1: play nice warning on thread
• level 2: strong warning on thread and to poster in pm
• level 3: post deletion
• level 4: thread deletion

Laborious to implement, unfortunately. But would simultaneously avoid debacles like the one that produced this thread, and stop people aligning abuse of Tory voters (a choice of free will) with abuse of race, religion, disability, etc. (not a choice, which is why it's a protected characteristic).

Snap, Winter!

But I would defend the rights of housewives to say working mothers like I am damage our children and leave them with strangers. I would defend the rights of ISIS and UK Muslim women to say women should serve men and obey them. I want that freedom of speech. I am very glad I live in a country where holocaust denial is legal.

winter

There are numerous threads on here bashing trans people. They still stand. That's a protected characteristic.

Should they be deleted?

Attacking a whole group is not on. Like this thread where a whole group (the English) have been labelled as anti Irish.

Or any thread where whole groups are labelled.

Its not my decision as to whether they should be deleted, its not my site and I dont make the rules. There should be consistency though, and considering other things that have been deleted I would say yes, they probably should be. I have seen some horribly transphobic posts, that are barely challenged at all.

Like this thread where a whole group (the English) have been labelled as anti Irish
Thats disingenuous and also untrue.

I don't think any Tory voter mentioned being a minority.

What I said was that there have been threads and specific posts about a range of groups including Scots, English, Tory voters, older people etc which have been upsetting or unpleasant. (I don't think any of these are really"minorities" in the sense usually referred to)

Orlando writes a good post. It must be very distressing - but for most people the issue of trans genderism does not even enter their thoughts. Others will be rude or worse about it. I can say that through people making vile comments about it and others explaining and challenging I have learnt far more about Trans Gender issues than I ever would have had we deleted everything.

The same goes for racism, sexism, homophobia, disablism -- I believe it is the only way.

Thats disingenuous and also untrue

That's my opinion and how I read it.

In practice websites don't have the time for all that and as long as users keep using the site which they do on MN then MN is doing fine. I write terms for websites amongst other work and we always give absolute discretion to the site to remove what it wants because there just isn't the time to keep checking and holding a kind of temporary court to decide who is right or wrong. No one will be looking at a thread in a way anyway so it's like chat in a bar.

However I agree with consistency and also I would prefer less censored than more.

I have never been on a thread about sexualities and trans etc so never noticed that side of it.

I would rather live in a country where people could post even if sometimes the posting feels unfair to others than have a lot of censorship. I would like us in England to be prepared to die to allow others to express views we regard as abhorrent.