To ask you what really works in getting a DP to do their fair share

[toomuchtooold]

OK upfront I'll say what my AIBU is, which is AIBU to ask to pick your brains and see what the best methods are for making DPs do their fair share.

It seems like on AIBU a couple of times a week someone else will post about their DP not pulling their weight. Usually it's one specific thing they fall out over but within each AIBU and across all of them there's a similar story:

• DP thinks he's entitled to rest when he's at home and not deal with night wakings if he is working/is working the longer hours
• DP gets out of a lot of work (night wakings, cleaning, organising school stuff) by ignoring/minimising it: didn't hear the kid in the night, doesn't have such high standards as you in cleaning, thinks it's fine for kid to go to school wearing last year's shoes
• DP just is day to day a bit more lazy - doesn't engage with the kids so much so they come to mum first for everything, only gets up when the kids get up etc
• before having kids DP has some prior commitment like rugby training that takes up 3 nights a week and even though there's no quid pro quo DP doesn't see any problem with continuing this

I've been reading some feminist stuff and getting a bit fired up about this. I read in Susan Maushart's Wifework that the majority of divorces are instigated by women (and the ONS 2012 divorce stats show that: 65% of divorces in 2012 were instigated by women. I wonder how much of that is because women get a raw deal in marriage particularly when the kids come along?

I don't want to get divorced but I do get bloody irritated with my DH and would like to see him do an equal share so I could get some free time and also so I can still respect him rather than being low level annoyed at him about 80% of the time! (If anyone wants the not very juicy details, happy to share )

So my big question to you Mumsnetters is has anyone managed to get their partner to see the unfairness in their setup and change it, and if so, how did you do it?

I do it even now although my children are teenagers and I work at home - sometimes you just feel ilke reading in the afternoon or messing around and just get down to work after 5 when it quietens down. This chap used to drink at lunch time too. I don't think most men and women are like this though with small chidlren - they both want to get home for bed time as often as they can. Every night in the 1960s my father read and sang to us at bed time with my mother, that was about 100% of the time we were under 8. That is normal being a parent stuff in the 60s, in the 80s with my children and nowadays in equal marriage.

I have heard it told that a useful tool is to ask your DH to make a list of the things he thinks need doing to maintain a household. Then you make the same list, and make sure to include all the "thinking/planning" chores. Your list will undoubtedly be several times longer than his. Because if you have fallen into stereotypical roles, chances are that he isn't even aware of most of the work, both physical and mental, that you are doing and it doesn't occur to him that it exists or is necessary.

Once you have compared lists and he realised how fucking much actually needs doing, you ask him how thinks it should be fairly distributed. His answer will tell you whether you have any hope or if he genuinely believes that the household is not his responsibility. If his response shows you that he really believes that it's your job and you should be grateful for any help he deigns to give you, there's nothing to be done but continue to see 80% of the time for the rest of your married life. Only you get to decide how long that happens to be.

I also find the phrase "Ah, silly me, I mistook you for a competent intelligent adult/parent" combined with a withering look works when DH has a lapse and expects me to do his thinking for him.

As as aside - Lotus, what is the point of you name changing if you're going to continue to post exactly the same things (pretty much verbatim) you have been posting for years? Makes you fairly easy to spot...

It's a relief to hear from people in similar situations. I find it difficult to explain to friends that dp isn't simply a lazy arse he's very ill, but at the same time he can be bloody lazy (just like anyone else including me!) and differentiating between the two can be difficult!

I could have written this post! My DH has MS, before he was diagnosed he did do housework, childcare etc but he was a procrastinator who would leave everything as long as possible (except kid related stuff). The first few years he was ill our DC were really young & it was so hard. I didnt really know when he was too ill or just being lazy & led to a lot of resentment. Sadly he is a lot worse now but I know he genuinely can't do a lot & I just have to get on with it. He probably does 20% of household stuff, mainly being here for preteen DC after school (they usually walk home) and taking them to activities. He will empty/fill dishwasher or washing machine if he has the energy. Occassionally he will hoover/tidy up but it knocks the stuffing out of him as does cooking a proper meal .
I do worry about DC seeing the female of the house doing it all but am trying to instil good values about all of us contributing what we can. They have their set chores & are all asked to help with age-appropriate jobs. DS1 is very domesticated, cooks dinner occassionally & bakes delicious cakes/cookies so I thin k we're doing OK on that front. I will
not have my sons growing up thinking women are here for their convenience!

I have a friend whose able-bodied DH did fuck all & barely knows his 12 yr old DD cos he had so little to do with her as a baby/young child. He is better with their DS as DF 'made' him look after him on his own occassionally. Still doesn't do housework though & doesn't have a demanding job. He starts early & is home by 4 & sits on his arse the rest of the day. This happened even when DFs dad (in his 80s) required more & more care & was diagnosed with Alzheimers. He would bitch about his dinner not being made on time etc. Would I fuck put up with that! He does all the gardening/DIY/car care etc as that is 'man's work' but sdespite being only mid 30s he very much sees domestic jobs/childcare as women's work! I could not live with someone like that!

Id complained a lot to dh about him just leaving rhings lying around. 3 things helped.

1. shaming him infront of his family. They commented that id lost weight. yes thats because i study full time, have a part time job, am a guide leader and im still doing all the housework. You should have seen the looks he got.
2. He went on scout camp for a week. Even though ds and i were at home because cm was on holiday, i ended up doing less hw. When i told him he looked v shocked. I told him it wasnt acceptable, he had had 5 years of chances so now we were getting ...
3. a cleaner. We have to tidy up every week which stops things from building up. Quite often he instigates the tidying up because he knows it has to be done.

Simple- don't marry a Cave Man in the first place.

(Sera, I have never voluntarily name changed on a website.Not my choice).

My DH works like a demon and is permanently exhausted. I also work full time from home so have a fantastic nanny who does more than look after the kids. I'm pregnant again and struggling to do anything so I just hired a cleaner to come and do the bits I can't even manage despite my nanny doing so much. I don't feel guilty as I can afford it and although my dh is pretty rubbish around the house he is good in that he will do anything I ask, I just refuse to ask him to do anything when he's so exhausted. So that's how I've solved it. I'm paying other people to help me get through the horrible day to day stuff. Even when I'm better ill probably never go back to not paying someone to do these jobs as long as we can afford it.

Just have zero tolerance for this shit, and teach your daughters and sons to have zero tolerance for it too.

I found myself living with an arsehole who thought this was all women's work and refused to do anything. It didn't occur to me to discuss this before hand as I've never even met anyone like that before - I thought the attitude had gone out with the ark. Never resolved it, I basically did what I thought was fair and fuck the rest, which meant we lived in a shithole. I really thought he'd see the light, he didn't. he thought I'd see the light, I didn't. We both seethed with resentment over it. Don't waste your life with an arse who thinks possesion of a penis gets him a live in servant.

I've never had a relationship with those issues before, and made double sure I didn't accidentally find one again! Happy to relate DP is very domesticated, more than me really, and yes I discussed it very early on in our dating.

I honestly do think the options are suck it up, or leave. Unless you are saying your DH is a moron who doesn't understand housework needs to be done and there's no such thing as magic fairies, and why would you want to be stuck with a moron? They know, they just know there are women who will let them get away with it.

I find it very sad when it's being passed on down through the generations. A collegue at work was talking about a comment her daughter made about her dad hoovering, and that she'd warned her daughter that she shouldn't expect this, and although it isn't fair women always end up doing most of the work. How awful She should have been telling her daughter to expect equality and that she doesn't have to settle for a man who wants a servant instead of a partner.

I left a selfish bastard two years ago.

I now have a man who helps out with MY children, cooks me dinner and shares the housework. We always go shopping together.

And no, you cannot have him, he's all mine

I agree that returning to work full time is critical to equal chores. We also earn the same, more or less, which helps in any arguments too.

I do not accept that washing or cooking is my job. Nor shopping although mostly done on line by me as he'd only buy chocolate and chips. Childcare and pick up / drop offs / days off work to look after sick children are also shared.

He complains sometimes that there is nothing fun to eat (children eat at nursery) - answer do some shopping and cooking. I can easily live in filth which also helps (he likes tidy).

It does annoy me sometimes but I am not too proud to nag.

Thanks everyone who replied. I thought I would try and summarise:

Sit down with each other and list out all tasks that need done in the week - likely the lists won't match, so discuss, and then divide fairly
Delegation of responsibility/allowing consequences to be felt
Playing to strengths, getting DPs to take on tasks they care about
talking to in-laws (I like that one! I think a big problem is getting the other person to understand how serious you are about wanting change. Speaking to my MIL would def. be the nuclear option!)
Having a house calendar for social stuff and booking things on it for yourself
Get DP to have solo childcare responsibilities whether that's a day or weekend here and there or if you can, sharing parental leave

I don't think it's straightforward, and I don't think it's all total bastards who don't do their 50%. I think having children increases your workload by orders of magnitude and that's true even if you still work full time and don't do night wakings on a school night. It's just that the stay at home parent's workload has increased by even more. It's so easy not to see as well, you look at someone walking down the street with their new baby in a pram and it looks like they are having a lovely stroll when in fact they have been awake all night and are circling the block trying to get the baby to sleep, hoping they might be able to stop next to a park bench and at least lie down for 5 minutes (hello yes, that was me). Or like my mother, who kept enthusiastically offering to babysit my 3 month olds solo until I let her try it for an hour and she never asked again . It takes an effort from both partners IMO to recognise this, and it takes effort from both sides to make a fairer distribution of work.

I quoted some stuff about divorce (65% of UK divorces instigated by women) and it came up in discussion that a lot of people thought you can't change someone, so you have to either live with it or leave. I hope that's not true, although the divorce stats would seem to support it! I wonder if we lack ways of telling partners, this is it, your last chance, you have to change. IMO you do need to give people the space to change and grow themselves but on the other hand they need to do their growing up before the children, or what's the point? If DH finds wisdom in his 80s and starts telling me how he should have made more of an effort with the kids, I'll be sticking his zimmer frame where the sun don't shine...

I recognised the name changer too Sera first time ever, but it is as you say, fairly obvious!

Don't marry a lazy twat. HTH

toomuch
Another tip especially as the DC get older. Don't let yourself become the "go to" parent for everything. I have been known to say to my DC "why did you come in here to ask me xyz when DH is in the same room as you - ask the adult already in the room." etc.
or
DC - Can we go swimming today
Me - DH is home today I am off to work, so check with him.

I like the summary but the one thing I disagree with is talking to the in-laws. You are both adults now and need to sort it out yourselves.

His Mum is likely to feel uncomfortable and she has no influence now (although she may very well have contributed to the problem when bringing him up).
She could either take his side or tell him off-neither of which would be helpful. I would guess he would be very annoyed and it wouldn't encourage him to change.

No, don't talk to the in-laws, that is just treating him like a child. You both need to be adult about this.

I think it's simplistic to say don't marry a man-child. It assumes he's always been useless and it's our fault for marrying him in the first place.

When DH and I first got together he was great with all things home related. Dinner cooked, would shop, manage the house etc. but that was before babies and his workload tripled. It is just fact of life that the more hours he works the more everything else defaults to me. Which is fine, we have a housekeeper to keep most of our shit together but it's the little things I want him to remember to take the initiative in.
Unfortunately once the shift towards the default parent happens, it's hard to get it back to a more even and equal division.
I don't believe everything has to be 50/50, but we both have to know what needs doing and when so that if, for exampl, I have to spend time in hospital etc, then things continue to tick over.

We both worked full time (eventually I earned 10x but at the start earned the same). It helped he had had his own house and I hadn't so he was teaching me things like how to put on a washing machine. We both had similar views on tidiness and hygiene. We are both hard workers.

It is when one person is a slob and the other a neat freak you have problems whatever the genders.

Also being 100% responsible for a job helps. He did all the washing at one point. I did organising school bags for next day. He took them to the dentist for 17 years and I did not even think about it or fix it etc etc. If you are 100% responsible for cooking or shopping or washing then you just do your task. He did the on line shopping order so I didn't think about what foods might be running out. We both though chipped in when here with general things which needed doing and he could get back at 9.45pm once a week from working and then do things like emptying dishwasher. It should be fair in terms of burden. I did bill paying and both our tax returns. He got home first from work to let the daily nanny go home.