To ask you what really works in getting a DP to do their fair share

[toomuchtooold]

OK upfront I'll say what my AIBU is, which is AIBU to ask to pick your brains and see what the best methods are for making DPs do their fair share.

It seems like on AIBU a couple of times a week someone else will post about their DP not pulling their weight. Usually it's one specific thing they fall out over but within each AIBU and across all of them there's a similar story:

• DP thinks he's entitled to rest when he's at home and not deal with night wakings if he is working/is working the longer hours
• DP gets out of a lot of work (night wakings, cleaning, organising school stuff) by ignoring/minimising it: didn't hear the kid in the night, doesn't have such high standards as you in cleaning, thinks it's fine for kid to go to school wearing last year's shoes
• DP just is day to day a bit more lazy - doesn't engage with the kids so much so they come to mum first for everything, only gets up when the kids get up etc
• before having kids DP has some prior commitment like rugby training that takes up 3 nights a week and even though there's no quid pro quo DP doesn't see any problem with continuing this

I've been reading some feminist stuff and getting a bit fired up about this. I read in Susan Maushart's Wifework that the majority of divorces are instigated by women (and the ONS 2012 divorce stats show that: 65% of divorces in 2012 were instigated by women. I wonder how much of that is because women get a raw deal in marriage particularly when the kids come along?

I don't want to get divorced but I do get bloody irritated with my DH and would like to see him do an equal share so I could get some free time and also so I can still respect him rather than being low level annoyed at him about 80% of the time! (If anyone wants the not very juicy details, happy to share )

So my big question to you Mumsnetters is has anyone managed to get their partner to see the unfairness in their setup and change it, and if so, how did you do it?

DampAndRotten I was in a similar situation, except I was the one who got into the habit of not doing much, even when I was able, because I was so used to not being well enough that it didn't seem my responsibility any more. I'm ashamed of it, but I had essentially 'checked out' of family life for a while. I didn't have CFS, but cancer-related fatigue, which is very similar.

What helped me was DH asking me to do things at first that didn't zap much energy, like sorting through paperwork. We'd do it together so even if I wasn't up to physically moving the paper, I could still go 'keep that', 'bin that', etc. Then we'd meal plan together, or I would do the online food shopping, which would tie in to looking in the cupboards to see what we had.

It was definitely the fact we were doing things together that got me more involved in family life again and I got my confidence back and realised that I was actually capable of far more than I thought I was.

People hide who they really are, exceptionally well, especially, those that are piss takers, or abusive.

Women are at their most vine tabs when they give birth.

Feel as smug as you want about your choices, but they could of easily not worked out.

I think we all need to be aware of everyday sexism and actively challenge it.

You have to clearly communicate what you both need from each other and be prepared to set deal breakers and end your relationship, if there is unreasonableness from your partner.

If you can't end it, you need to just get on with it the best you can, without letting your unhappiness affect your children, but ideally it should end.

Vulnerable not vine tabs!

Feel as smug as you want about your choices, but they could of easily not worked out.

Who is feeling smug. I wouldn't have married dh if i thought he felt a having children meant a woman had to do all the house work. It is easy to hide somethings, but not you general view of the world.

I knew dh always felt as its his home it was also his responsibility. I knew that he felt fathers should should as much of the responsibility of their kids as possible. Its surely not that unusual to know the core values of a person that you are going to have kids with.

If you dh is respectful and responsible and he changes completely when you give birth, then what other option do you have than divorce. If they are no longer the person you married and changed their values, why would you want to be with them?

ex as of the opinion htat looking after the children onhis own was boring... there was a fabulous tumble weed moment when he said this after his dad accompanied them out, while mil and I did diy. three of us just looked at him... like

he also thought I had loads of free time in the day, but it was too hard to look after children and wash up/tidy when he was doing it.

all came down to attitude. he did not value the stuff I did, did not see half of it, (eg the fridge stayed clean because it was new) therefore he did not see fit to pull his weight, also stuff was done for me... (it is not my sodding nappy you have just changed)

you may be able to get a dp who is a bit thoughtless to do more, but not if they have the underlying attitude of stuff being beneath them.

I don't think you can control your partner. You can state your POV, describe your reality and ask them to address their part.

Either they will or won't.

Coming up with all the solutions, managing the situation at home, being the one to divide chores equally and asking P to do "their chores" isn't a solution between equals. It places the burden on one party to police/manage the other. Lip service not equality.

And then it all falls down.

DP would be lazy & let me do everything if I put up with it. I won't put up with it. His parents had a classic SAHM set up and even though in our friends relationships both partners work and earn similar amounts, for some unfathomable reason the women do most of the shit work.

He know does his fair share and its ingrained. I used to pull him up on every occasion he was unfair and selfish. I was very unhappy as was he & we had some terrible arguments. I didn't think we would go the distance.

Friends thought I should put up and shut up (as do they). But now we are equal partners and very happy.

K, so you find out you are married to a dick and procreated with one. Do you a) procreate more with said arse, hoping he will change b) spell it out, change or we are through and then double up on contraception so you don't 'fall pregnant' to this person again?

"Who is feeling smug. I wouldn't have married dh if i thought he felt a having children meant a woman had to do all the house work."

The men I've come across from my personal and working life (working with all types of families, abusers etc), don't vocalise how they will eventually treat their partners or children, most are in denial of the real issues.

As for divorce, I've seen more upper income women trapped in DA situations, than lower income, but the charity services are improving.

It's still a big step to turn your child's life upside down because your lumbered with the housework, but it is a form of Abuse, disrespect etc, not that one issue.

You've then got to hand your chid over, if you've put them on the Bc from day one. I can understand why women stay.

I wish generally female self esteem was higher.

Or do you that hold the opinion think women deliberately partner up with abusers and child sex offenders as well?

I'm one of the older posters on here, I can remember a time when the wife of a convicted rapist/murderer was also blamed, but you can live with someone and not know them, equally you really don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

Or do you that hold the opinion think women deliberately partner up with abusers and child sex offenders as well?

What are you going on about?

What do sex offenders have to do with a partner that thinks the housework is their wifes job?

I hold the opinion that to many people have long term relationships and children with people that they probably shouldn't have. Many threads are started by people and I know people in RL who are complaining about their partners attitudes, when the partner has always been the same. Too many people expect their partners to magically change and become more responsible, thoughtful and respectful when a child comes along. in most cases its been pretty obvious that the partner has never pulled their weight. The boundries have never been set, or if they have they haven't been kept to.

Women don't marry some who is a sex offender and assume they will change, do they?

I believe that people can hide being a sex offender etc.

I don't believe people hide the fact that they can't be arsed with house work.

I really struggled before kids I would do it all - after kids and when unwell I just couldn't - I upped using a cleaner - even though we couldn't really afford it.

I have done the arguing route, letting the house get to an awful state, begging and crying and pleading.

It still fucks me off but in the end I had to accept it or I would go mad. My own father did way more than my mum at home - as my mum was often ill but I think my dad would have helped out equally - so believe me it was a shock to my feminist self how unequal my partnership was and is on the domestic duties.

My dh says his parents made him do way way too much work as a child and so he now does as little as possible. There is real truth in that. He is good with the kids and taking time off work for childcare - so he will in a heartbeat do that and does more than his fair share there.

Basically though I nearly thought a few times that our marriage was over due to him not helping me. All the house renovation falls to me too - and when I have been ill then this just has to wait.

I also nearly got into a frickin hoarding mentality.

I look at couples who do housework together and I envy them.

He does help out now but he will never say clean the windows, dust, clean or mop a floor. He will get clothes ready for the kids and do washing and dishes but that is about it. He will also cook now. He does the bills - as I can not be bothered in that front. It is just bizarre but I do think it sounds like he had a pretty fucked up childhood - just working for his parents non stop.

Oh he will now let me have indulgent sleep ins - thank god!

I think you have to start them young. My youngest brother was 8 when he told my mum he wasn't washing up as that was women's work. He spent the next year washing up after every meal which is no small task in a family of 10.

no way would I tolerate being with someone who didn't do their fair share. in my case we both work full time, dc x 3 so life is certainly busy & its simply not possible for me to do it all. luckily dh is a good guy & just mucks into whatever to do list I've pinned on the fridge for him. I could not cope with a 'chore shy' partner. you need to thrash it out cos otherwise its gonna eat away at you. could you designate certain chores to him so theres no confusion of 'I didn't know I was supposed to do it' ?

In my experience there are a few useful tips that sometimes get ignored -

• if one of you has a long, early morning commute then it is not practical or safe for that partner to do multiple night feeds;
• if you have particular standards ("That's not how you fold that shirt", "I don't like my tomatoes cut like that", "That garment is handwash") that is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY;
• if someone does you a favour (for example, cleaning your pet's hutch) you repay that favour somehow;
• chucking a jar of sauce over pasta DOES NOT constitute a reasonable effort considering the fish pie on Monday, the homemade meatballs on Tuesday or the steak dinner on Saturday.
• "I don't know how to use that" isn't an excuse - no-one was born knowing how to use it.

damp - my sympathies! My DH spends all day at home looking after DD, and is trying to start up a business at the same time (this is new; until a little while ago it was studying for a postgrad degree, which he now has, then a bit of very part-time work). I understand that this basically takes up all of his energy budget, but the problem is that I work full time, and this takes up all of my energy budget. I am not as ill as he is, but I am still ill, and things need to get done somehow.

What frustrates me is that DH will do whatever it is he fancies at the time and more often than not, what he fancies is something that isn't housework. Sometimes it's his business, and sometimes it's a hobby/fun thing. And when he's out of energy, he stops. So if the dishwasher isn't unloaded, it stays that way. I feel like he makes no effort at all to 'pace', and think about what needs to be done. Every once and a while he'll do things like arranging our holiday travel, sorting out the lawn care, exploring childcare options for DD, etc. The thing is that he rarely does things until they become super urgent (we got DD signed up for nursery in the last few days possible, for example).

However, I have the opposite problem. I fill my life with the "should-do's", which is more energy than I have. I feel terribly guilty spending energy on something fun if I know that it means I won't be able to get the dishes done that evening, or do the laundry, or whatnot. I am trying to learn to allow some fun into my life, recognising that I can exhaust myself to illness and still not accomplish all the should-do's, so I might as well do a little bit less and enjoy something. Watching DH has helped with this.

But I think the happy medium is somewhere between our attitudes. I'm managing to pull myself further over towards DH, but I'm not sure how to get him further towards me.

I don't think you can always blame the parents. PILs have very traditional set-up, meaning MIL does everything in the house, and DH himself had never cooked a meal or done any cleaning or laundry before he moved out. He learned though, as he's a fully functioning adult.

Yes, the best advice is not to marry a dick, and start as you mean to go on. I had read Wifework, so when moving in with DH, was very clear that I'm not taking any of that shit over. If he managed to feed himself before and send or not send birthday cards, he can continue with it. Now, of course that does not mean that we each cook our own dinner and hoover half the floor only - just that those things didn't become my responsibility.

If you're already past that stage, I guess a serious discussion might help. If they're at least somewhat reasonable, they should see that things are not fair. It might not be so obvious - I remember a thread on MN where people explained that they grew up with a mum who did everything, or a full time maid, so it really did not occur to them that things didn't magically get clean.

Giving them a list should be a last resort, it will still make you responsible.

Before I had dcs I was just as much of a slattern as dh, so I don't think either one of us could have predicted how many arguments housework would cause! I grew up
he didn't

""I don't believe people hide the fact that they can't be arsed with house work.""
So when women say their partner has changed, you don't believe them?

I'm just disgusted by the reasoning that once again, lazy arse male behaviour and a woman having to become a LP, is thought of being her fault, because other women's DPs aren't like that because the posters are obviously so better at finding a partner that hasn't changed for the worst since DC came along.

On god Mum's friends had a crap Dh who did fuck all around the house, she was expected to work full time, be responsible to childcare and housework. They spoilt up before I was born but she repeatedly told me to not end up with a man like that. My mum was a SAHM until I was 8 but I still remember my Dad doing housework on a Saturday morning. Mum used to go to work on a Saturday morning at a friends shop just to get out of the house. My older sister by a signigifant number of year moved in with her partner when she was fairly young and did everything and I have seen how that has turned out. She tells me that despite the fact she works longer hours than time the house work is her responsibility! I am determined this will not be me despite the fact mil babied DH.

DH and I regularly review what needs to be done is house. We started my writing a list of jobs, how long they took and divided them up by time so we have equally amount of stuff. If he does not do his job and I will remind him not do them. There is some give and take if one of us is busy at work.

But we don't have kids yet and statically most people do an equally amount of house stuff until they have children and then women end up doing a lot more than men.

Thank you OldBlood and Murmuration.

It's a relief to hear from people in similar situations. I find it difficult to explain to friends that dp isn't simply a lazy arse he's very ill, but at the same time he can be bloody lazy (just like anyone else including me!) and differentiating between the two can be difficult!

Best wishes for both of your health

I'm just disgusted by the reasoning that once again, lazy arse male behaviour and a woman having to become a LP, is thought of being her fault, because other women's DPs aren't like that because the posters are obviously so better at finding a partner that hasn't changed for the worst since DC came along.

Be disgusted. You can not change a person, you can not make them do more around the house. You can choose to stay or not.

And I stand by what I said, lots of people complain about their partners and its been the same since before they got married or had kids. Lots of people change when the settle down and have kids, some people don't.

We have a weekly timetable on the fridge broken down into meal planning, admin and hobbies/activities. We fill it in Sunday evenings over a glass of wine and everyone knows where everyone is going to be on which day and who is responsible for what jobs during this week. We both work FT and occasionally travel so we plan our week in advance, it works really well for us.