To ask you what really works in getting a DP to do their fair share

[toomuchtooold]

OK upfront I'll say what my AIBU is, which is AIBU to ask to pick your brains and see what the best methods are for making DPs do their fair share.

It seems like on AIBU a couple of times a week someone else will post about their DP not pulling their weight. Usually it's one specific thing they fall out over but within each AIBU and across all of them there's a similar story:

• DP thinks he's entitled to rest when he's at home and not deal with night wakings if he is working/is working the longer hours
• DP gets out of a lot of work (night wakings, cleaning, organising school stuff) by ignoring/minimising it: didn't hear the kid in the night, doesn't have such high standards as you in cleaning, thinks it's fine for kid to go to school wearing last year's shoes
• DP just is day to day a bit more lazy - doesn't engage with the kids so much so they come to mum first for everything, only gets up when the kids get up etc
• before having kids DP has some prior commitment like rugby training that takes up 3 nights a week and even though there's no quid pro quo DP doesn't see any problem with continuing this

I've been reading some feminist stuff and getting a bit fired up about this. I read in Susan Maushart's Wifework that the majority of divorces are instigated by women (and the ONS 2012 divorce stats show that: 65% of divorces in 2012 were instigated by women. I wonder how much of that is because women get a raw deal in marriage particularly when the kids come along?

I don't want to get divorced but I do get bloody irritated with my DH and would like to see him do an equal share so I could get some free time and also so I can still respect him rather than being low level annoyed at him about 80% of the time! (If anyone wants the not very juicy details, happy to share )

So my big question to you Mumsnetters is has anyone managed to get their partner to see the unfairness in their setup and change it, and if so, how did you do it?

dump, I've thought of a little more targeted suggestions for your situation.

Similar to my identify-likes/dislikes suggestion, there are some things that are particularly hard for people with CFS/ME, like reaching their arms above their heads. This hits DH harder than me, so I take care of all sorts of ceiling things, like lightbulbs and fire alarm batteries, and we also make sure that the dishes that are commonly used (and thus he has to put away/take out) are on lower shelves in the kitchen. Alternately, I find navigating in physical spaces that I do not frequent particularly exhausting, so if anything needs to be gotten from the shed on an infrequent basis (like getting a new set of trash bags 3x a year), DH does that.

Another thing I keep trying to get DH to do is to tell me if he's not up to something, as opposed to simply not doing it. So once there is something that is your DH's job, you could let him have the ability to say he's not up to it then, rather than letting it slide. It may be that he may find it less energy to just go do the thing rather than explain he can't :) I think in fact that this happens to DH sometimes.

I found Being The Sort Of Ranting Feminist No Man Would Want v useful in this regard.

I agree, NRomanoff.

You see it a lot on here: threads from women who move in with a 'partner' who is already showing himself to be someone who thinks housework isn't his responsibility. And she's concerned enough to post, but people chime in with 'no one's perfect' 'give him a chance' or she even starts up with 'but he's a perfect partner otherwise', minimising, etc.

Then there's another thread later, with a baby in the picture and the person is still who he always was: someone who doesn't think pulling his weight in lifework is his responsibility.

Back when I was dating, if I went to the man's home and it was an utter shit tip, or his car, that was it, it was over. Not because I'm perfect, or he needed to be, but because that's someone showing you who they are, and for me, a total slattern was like pouring cold water on my libido. Cannot find someone who sleeps in 4 month old sheets attractive.

Often, you reap what you sow. It's perfectly fine to have dealbreakers.

Snapple you used the word 'help' with regards to your husband's pulling his weight twice in your post and also that he 'let you' have a lie-in.

And therein lies the problem, when you consider everything in the domestic sphere to be your job because you have a vagina.

I was the slattern in my relationships. I still have tendencies because, absolutely, people don't really change. The reason I do more now is because I really love DH and appreciate everything he does. When I inevitability sink into my own filth a little, he says something like, "I need some support, I'm doing too much", and I step up. Not always with complete good grace, but I really try.

I am the one who juggles childcare, work, travel and schedules so there are areas I completely manage...

I have found that it is better to divide tasks so that they feel fair rather than just trying to do 50% each. For example, I hate cooking so DH does most of the cooking, DH hates cleaning so I do most of the cleaning.

Pre DC when we both worked full time we never had any problems with division of housework, but having a baby did change that which came as a huge shock to me. DH was well brought up by DMIL and had always pulled his weight before, but suddenly I was doing everything and I was knackered. I was on maternity leave and he saw the housework and cooking as my 'job' because I was at home and l was doing all the baby care at night as I was bfing but also he was leaving it all for me during the evenings and weekend too

I solved the problem by showing DH the following sum:
7×8h per night looking after baby = 56
5×8h per day looking after baby and housework = 40
My total hours with sole responsibility for DD = 96
Total number of hours in the week = 168
Of which I have sole responsibility of the baby for 96h
Remaining hours = 72
50% of remaining hours = 36hours that DH should be responsible for the baby completely on his own during the evenings and weekend daytime.

It really put it in perspective for him to see it written down and he realised how much more he actually needed to do to be fair.

Totally agree. Fair minded men who respect their partners, who do 50% of the housework and don't need to be forced to "help out" do not suddenly turn into neanderthal arses the minute a baby arrives. Sure people change for the worse, that man that expected you to do 80% of the work because you're the one with a vagina now expects you to do 100% because a baby came out of it.

We do have to take responsibility for the choice of partner to parent with! How many threads do we see on here about women marrying/living with total idiots, lazy bums, cheaters etc, these are not men that surprise when they aren't fantastic fathers.

If you're found yourself in the situation where you have to try and force your partner to do the things they should be doing, there are hints and tips to try here. But people are who are they are, and they are pretty consistent in their behaviour. You might make them do a bit more, but its unlikely to suddenly change hugely.

Nothing will work unless the DP wants to do an equal share. You cannot make another adult do anything.
If your standards are higher and they don't care leaving things to get in a mess will only depress you-because they still won't do anything.

All I can suggest is identifying what they do care about. In my case we finished up with DH doing all the shopping, cooking, paperwork and bills and me doing laundry, ironing, cleaning etc.-as he just didn't seem to care if the place looked a mess. It worked out reasonably in the end. He wasn't going to iron even if he looked like a tramp but he was going to cook when he got hungry.

giving him 'ownership' of a set task, so the can feel proud once its done. Is he five?

Give clear instructions, make direct requests. Thing is, I bet no one needs to 'give clear instructions' to the women in these cases. So why does a man need treating like a work-experience person? (actually that's not fair on work-experience people).

Clear instructions and direct requests is still having him as an extra child rather than an equal partner. It is his house, his children and he should see what needs doing.

You can't make an adult do anything but neither do you have to put up with him doing nothing.

DH cooks, as I am not mad on it
I Iron as I can justify watching all the soaps whilst I do it.
Neither of us clean - we pay a cleaner
I do all the money, admin, social secretary. DH looks after the computer network and all household things like the electrics/diy (although we get people in for bigger jobs) IE we each play to our strengths. We have done this for almost 30 years now and seem to rub along OK without any major rows over division of labour.

When we had small DCs I was an SAHM so I did see it as part of my job to get up in the night 6 nights a week (mine were however trained to sleep through very early and were in a good routine so it was not that hard!) and DH had to do one weekend night . We each had a lie in at the weekend - the other one "did the early". I realise that will seem unfair to many, but DH was a good breadwinner and we had a nice life style and I really appreciated not having to juggle the childcare/work thing.

The very first post from dollius on this thread is all you need to know really. It helps if you have a partner who is on the same page as you as to what is necessary and important to get done.
I know several women who are obsessive about housework and the way things are done and expect their partners to be the same.
Don't get involved with someone and expect them to change unless they want to.

My approach is to refuse to direct proceedings. They are DH's house and DC as well, I'm not in charge.

It took me a very very long time to manage to do this. I grew up with the house being the province of my mum, so I felt guilty for ages about not looking after things "properly".

I still feel guilty from time to time, but I remind myself that it's not automatically my job to look after the house and children simply because I'm a woman.

Sometimes DH does bloke-ish things like asking where something is in the house (where you left it!) or asking some daft question about DD eg nursery that he really should know the answer to as he is a SAHD. I feign ignorance for the most part!

I'm getting a white board for the wall and calling it the "OUR HOUSE NEEDS..." BOARD - everything on there is what needs to be done for the House to work well, and by default, our marriage. Because whilst DH works stupid hours each week, it doesn't mean I am the one that should be doing everything at home too. I work 50 hours too and we both earn roughly the same.

By putting the requirements somewhere external and visually accessible where I don't have to verbally "ask" (submissive, like it's my job and I need help with it) or "tell" (bossing, like I'm the boss and ordering him around), then it means I don't become a "nag" - he doesn't have to look to me for direction, he just has to look at the board. Whatever is on the board that isn't ticked off? Pick something and do it. Don't want to deal with the battle of reading bedtime story? Then pick something else.

I'm hoping this means that psychologically, seeing everything that needs to get done, right in front of him, means I can refrain from being the "head" of this family. I want an equal, I don't want a third son (well I do, just not one that I've not given birth too and raised as best I can)

DH doesn't stop to think about just how much work goes into running a home and keeping everything together. I do everything. Banking/Finance/kids/appointments/juggle overtime for when he doesn't have any/social/current property needs/house building needs/holidays/flights/arranging the helper's timetable/car service/groceries - everything. If DH could see what I do he'd be astounded. But I do it automatically because it's just built up over the years. We were equal at the beginning and before kids.

So now, we will have the board. To save my sanity and my marriage. And I really really hope it works!

Thinking about the list of things to put on the white board, writing it al down, keeping it updated, checking the tasks have bave been done is a lot of work. Make sure they are listed as indvidual tasks on the the white board and tick them off with your initials by them.

Sounds like your still the boss of the houshold mundane crap but going to use a different method of communicating the tasks.

Would not tolerate a sexist man even for a day. Helped I earned 10x what he did. Money rules okay......

Divide up eg I did most night waking with breastfeeding twins. he did all night waking for them from age 1 - 3 and that was every night - ended up same amount of time/nights.

He did all the washing with the first children and I did none - I usefully did not know how to ooperate the machine.

He got home from work first to let the childcarer go.

Just only marry feminists and do not tolerate sexism even for a day. It's dead easy.

Also Stroke I have worked with men doing stupid hours. One had a wife at home and he would go out at noon and play snooker for 3 hours and come back around 5 and work until very late whilst taking pleading calls from the wife. I shared his room. He wanted to avoid the stress of bed time.

Well yes, by default I will still be the boss of the household due to the fact that I spend more time there.

But it forces ownership. I just want to be able to ask fewer "can you just..." questions. If I'm upstairs doing bathtime, I don't want him sitting down waiting for me to come down before asking what we're having for dinner. I want him to come upstairs and say "are we having chicken? I'll get it on, don't worry" - he used to be like that but working hours have made him more reliant on me being the decision maker. Used to work ok, but doesn't work well long term, with a busier household.

And unfortunately his hours don't really allow for regular ownership of certain tasks other than walking the dogs or taking the bins out. I don't expect it all to be equal, not in the slightest. He works his bollocks off and has a far better work ethic than I do, but he doesn't switch from "work needs to home needs" like I do, he just switches from "work needs to Top Gear". I want him to switch from "work needs to home needs to Top Gear".

And now instead of getting huffy and glaring daggers at him, he can come in, check the board and take ownership.

Likewise with putting what we're eating on the board. I generally meal plan 4 meals a week, allowing for leftovers on nights in between. Now I don't have to answer the "what are we having for dinner?" questions.

He is not a bad person, and I think by seeing the list of everything that needs to be done to keep the house running properly in front of him, will make him realise a) just how much I do and b) how much he needs to chip in with. A public shaming of sorts

Ahhh Lotus, see DH isn't office based and we work on a tiny island. I pretty much know where he is most of the time. I get it though, he finds bedtime stressful because he doesn't like to read, but instead does the rough and tumble play. I'm happy with that. As long as he takes the initiative to do dinner after the rough and tumble play. That's the difference.

And that's the crux of the matter, is that he needs to regain his initiative.

In our case he had had run a house and I was an ex student so things like how to work washing machines, cook etc were something he had to teach me and I am more than happy to feign ignorance of myriad domestic matters. I was perfecting the technique again even today 30 yeras on with a teenage son with views on dishwasher use and said I would be more than happy to delegate the entirety of that task to such a willing volunteer with clearly better skills than have I.
I do wonder if long maternity leaves are playing an awful role in sexism at home these days. We didn't have them in my day so both parents were working full time and sharing stuff at home. Now you get woman at home on very long leave and man carrying on with life and work happy as larry with his domestic goddess at home on her long long leave.

Dh has always been uber hands on with dcs. He does shift work so would often look after them when I was at work. He's very practical but also creative so would do crafts and things with them whilst I would take them out to park etc.
Housework wise, if he noticed it he would do it ie mop kitchen floor if muddy but doesn't have same standards as me. Would never consider dusting unless I ask but will check washing machine to see if anything needs hanging out and will do ironing without being asked.
He does cook as in take stuff out of freezer and put in oven and is obsessive about stacking dishwasher.
But he really comes into his own with household finances - will spend days finding best insurance and diy he's a wizz at. And car things - just replaced my discs and suspension thingies and saved a fortune.
Sometimes I wish he wasn't quite so capable as it makes me feel slightly inadequate

Lotus you may be right. I only had 6 months off for each DC and worked a bit from home throughout. It also helps that dh doesn't like spending money on things he can do himself, so threat or cleaner/ ironing lady or me giving up work keeps him focused

I'm inclined to agree with you about the maternity leave Lotus but I only had 17 weeks (don't have longer here, not UK) and spent my days drinking coffee, having lunch with friends, reading and sleeping. No housework for me!

I pretended I didn't know how to cook for the longest time but after 7 years I was outed. And my unfortunate type A personality means I don't like to not succeed. But DH knew I would not be his domestic goddess the second I told him that I wasn't willing to put my hand down a toilet if he wasn't. So I got a cleaner.

I think the attempt to be a good mum has just merged with "being a good wife", in that I want my children to grow up in calm orderly home. And thats when I find myself doing everything to achieve this. Which means I need to step back and give DH a chance to step up.

DH has never run a house - his parents divorced acrimoneously and I don't think he knows how an effective house or marriage works. His parents are lovely mind, but I've been lucky to see my parents still working together after 45 years. Dad does all the financial stuff and worked, Mum stayed home with us and ran the home. It worked for them because they were a together unit. It was never dad's money, it was the family's money. But dad did all the "man's work" and it worked very well for them.

We are lucky that we work well with money because we have enough, both have the same goals and the same outlook. Thankfully money is one thing we have no resentment over. All money in one pot and I manage it.

We don't have defined roles and that seems to be our problem and because of the complexity of our timetables, it's hard to pin down the tasks to attribute so I'm not seething with resentment.

Also Stroke I have worked with men doing stupid hours. One had a wife at home and he would go out at noon and play snooker for 3 hours and come back around 5 and work until very late whilst taking pleading calls from the wife. I shared his room. He wanted to avoid the stress of bed time.

Same as that. Well the guy I know didn't actually go playing snooker, but was very lazy, and spent very late hours at the office, when his children were small.