To support DS to break school rules?

[Woffa]

My DS's secondary school has issued a written ban on sixth formers driving to school and parking in the local roads nearby (even though there are no double yellow lines etc) to avoid upsetting the residents.
The bus fare for DS is expensive and the saving helps pay for his insurance.

AIBU to support him in ignoring the ban?

But, realistically, Charis, how many of those tragedies you experienced were directly attributable to sixth formers being allowed to drive to and from school? Statistically the vast majority of such accidents happen at night time - teenagers are 18 times more likely to be involved in serious accidents between 2 and 5 a.m. than adults are.

Has the OP said that it is a state maintained school in question?

It's outside of school hours, and outside of their jurisdiction. Which bit of that is so hard for you to grasp?

But, realistically, Charis, how many of those tragedies you experienced were directly attributable to sixth formers being allowed to drive to and from school?

All of them, because that is where it happened, and invariably with a full car of students wanting a lift, or just to experience their friends driving.

That is why many schools that don't ban driving out right, ban sixth formers driving with another student in the car.

It's outside of school hours, and outside of their jurisdiction

sorry, but outside school hours is NOT outside school jurisdiction, a fundamental truth you seem to be struggling to grasp

I have to say, Charis, that the experience you claim is so far outside statistical norms that it really doesn't take this discussion any further.

no it isn't. I've worked in schools for decades.

Statistically, the single most likely cause of death of any teenager in the uk is the driving of a sixth form boy.

My experiences are totally in line with the national averages.

but if the school bans it and you disregard the rule, you may well be expelled.

Utter tripe. You keep saying this and can't back it up. There is not a school in the land that would expel a 6th former in these circumstances, and if they did, not an LEA in the land that wouldn't overturn it in an instant. And them probably sack the Head for gross misconduct.

There are strict guidelines re expulsion, and this doesn't even make it on to the radar. I doubt it would even warrant a detention, let alone expulsion.

TTWK I have worked in schools that have expelled sixth formers for breaking a driving ban.

When I was in 6th form at school, they tried to bring in a rule like this, not to park on the roads directly around the school. So we all got there early one day and parked on the staff car park, meaning the staff had to find alternative parking. They all parked on the roads directly round school (as we normally did) rather than parking a bit further away and walking as they wanted us to do. The school then dropped their parking policy and we carried on parking on the roads round school until we left.

TTWK I have worked in schools that have expelled sixth formers for breaking a driving ban.

So you've said. And I've said I'm not buying it. I've been a school governor of a London comp and have been involved in expulsions. Expulsions relating to extremely serious offences, involving violence. It is a fraught process, with huge difficulties. It is hard for a school to expel a pupil. And downright impossible in the circumstances you suggest.

If a teacher complained to a pupil about breaking a driving ban and the pupil pulled a knife on the teacher and attempted to stab them in the eye, then you might have the beginnings of a case! If a bag of heroin fell out of their pocket when they got the knife out, then even better.

Deaths due to transport related accidents are highest in the 15-25 age group (5-600 deaths per year on average) but if we are going to allow young people to drive then we should be looking at the facts. So of the key risk factors driving with other young people in the car, drunk/distracted driving and driving at night none are addressed by simply banning youths from driving to school.

My ds will be taking his first driving test shortly, his theory test. Then he will be a learner driver for a year, only allowed to drive with an adult, and no late night driving. Next year he will take a practical test and then he will have two years as a novice driver, with the main limitations being one youth passenger only, no electronic devices and zero alcohol limit.

This scheme will I think help keep him safer than his school suddenly deciding he can't drive to school.

Charis, the published statistics don't support you. In 2013, for instance, there were 771 deaths in the 17-19 age group, of which car occupants made up 71, whilst 98 were attributable to what is described as "intentional self-harm". It is inevitable that some of those car occupants will have been in accidents where they were passengers in cars driven by their parents or other older drivers, and indeed some will be drivers or passengers in accidents caused by older drivers of other vehicles or extraneous causes such as mechanical failure. If you look at deaths due to accidents as opposed to deaths due to illness, the latter heavily outweigh the former.

Charis, the published statistics don't support you

Yes they do, here is a quote from RSPA for you. You could easily find this information for your self if you actually wanted to

Teenagers and Cars Can Be A Deadly Combination

Before you hand over the car keys to your teenager, know the facts. Auto accidents are the leading cause of death for teens ages 15 to 20. When teen drivers ride with other passengers, their risk of being in a fatal car crash doubles. Overall, teenagers underestimate or are unable to recognize hazardous driving conditions.

Charis, if you have worked in state maintained schools that have permanently excluded pupils for driving, then all those schools have acted unlawfully. I linked to the current exclusions guidance above which makes it clear that permanent exclusion would not be appropriate in a case of this nature, and the guidance in place prior to the current version made it even more difficult to exclude a pupil permanently. Like TTWK, I have been a school governor for years, and have also served for years on exclusion appeal panels covering schools over a wide area, and I have never come across a pupil excluded for this reason.

The biggest single cause of death for teenagers, boys or girls, is the driving of teenage boys.

The more peers there are in the car or watching, the more likely a teenage boy is to crash his car.

These are plain and simple facts.

You quite simply do not want to accept or believe the actual truth about the matter.

going to bed now, so if you want to know my response to anything else, just reread a previous post.

I know what I am talking about.

I have never come across a pupil excluded for this reason.

and I have, in more than one school, and quite rightly so.

Charis, where do you imagine I got the statistics I quoted from? Not from second hand quotes from Rospa, but actual government statistics. In fact, on further digging into Department of Transport statistics, there are more deaths and serious injuries in the secondary pupil age group from pedestrian accidents than car accidents.

And those Rospa statistics you quote don't even support your claims. Notice that they say that the leading cause of death for teens aged 15-20 is auto accidents, but that will include auto accidents where they are pedestrians, passengers in cars driven by older drivers, or are the victims of accidents caused by other drivers. They refer entirely separately to accidents caused by teenage car drivers without suggesting those are the leading cause of death. And, most significantly, they do not state whether the drivers in those accidents were sixth formers (many will be outside the relevant age group or will have left school) or the time of day of the accidents.

I repeat, these statistics support raising the minimum driving age; they do not support bans on driving to school. Given that 17 and 18 year olds can drive legally, they will be safer drivers if they have plenty of practice.

You are conflating your stats though Charis. While yes the leading cause of death in the 50-20 age group is car accidents, I don't see anywhere that states that these deaths are all caused by accidents where a teenage male driver is the cause.

That there are other statistics about the increased risk of accidents when teenage drivers have other teenagers in their car you can interpolate very much from that because no numbers are quoted, the doubled risk could be with quite small numbers. Likewise I can't say that there is no risk in a school commuting drive just because the risk of an accident late at night in this age group is apparently 12 times higher.

I'd certainly much rather my teen drives a familiar route during daytime to get to school while building up with experience than only drove in the evening after school activities are over. when he is much more likely to be tired or to be affected by drink or drugs (both significant risk factors).

Charis, you are quoting from purely anecdotal sources. It is significant that you repeatedly refuse to reference the factual information you purport to give, and fail to engage with the reality of the law on permanent exclusions. Do you seriously deny the terms of government school exclusions guidance? If you do, it is you who are refusing to accept actual truths.

I've only seen one person so far make the very obvious point that the numbers of cars involved here must be negligible. How many students are there in your average school-attached sixth form? Maybe 40 in each year? Many of whom aren't old enough to drive or haven't passed their test. Even fewer of whom enjoy the relative luxury of running their own car. So this 'rule', designed to appease the sensitivities of local residents, applies to perhaps ten cars?

Fucking ridiculous.

It's basically age discrimination.

OP, I wouldn't pander to it either.

My son woke me up to say he returned safety from a music festival. What all excuse do you all have to be discussing this subject in the wee hours?

More sixth form policies...

Hampton school (fee-paying, Middlesex, they require EVERY vehicle that a 6th-former travels with to be registered with them, so presumably every parental car): other policies apply

Forest School (indie, London): long complicated FAQ

Ridgeways (state academy, Swindon): don't arrange driving lessons during school time (that's it)

Skinners School (Grammar Academy, Royal Tunb Wells): don't arrange driving lessons during school time.

Marches school (state academy, Shropshire): must apply for a parking permit

Callington academy (state academy, Cornwall): pupils can't have time off for driving lessons.

Serious differences in control freakery between state & indie sector.

Charis, where do you imagine I got the statistics I quoted from? Not from second hand quotes from Rospa, but actual government statistics

Mine ARE official statistics, and confirmed by several sources which you can look into yourself.

I've only seen one person so far make the very obvious point that the numbers of cars involved here must be negligible

well over a thousand had driving licenses in my last school.

I am currently working in several schools, sixth forms of 300-400, no idea how many drive, because they are banned from driving to school, although at least a quarter of my personal students have spoken to me about driving at other times.

It's basically age discrimination

would you call it age discrimination if 12 year olds were banned from driving to school? No of course not, because they don't have the development, because they are young.

And yet a 12 year old is likely to have better judgement than a 17 year old. Biologically teen brains are very different, and are not primed for safe and sensible survival behaviour, but for risk, and competition, and displays bravery to their "tribe" This is NOT behaviour we want on our roads outside schools, it is part of our duty of care towards teenage boys to find healthy and constructive outlets for their instincts.

Meanwhile, you are happy to call it "age discrimination" to allow people with worse judgement than 12 year olds to be put into a situation which is likely to lead to injury and death!

Get outta town

Get outta town

what is it that you are not aware of?

the fundamentals of human biology?

or the reams and reams of information schools hold about children, including race, gender, religion, sexuality, family background, smoking habits, and yes, whether or not they have a driving license.