To ask if you have had any contact with benefit 'scroungers'

[JumpRope]

I utterly believe that we need to protect the poor, vulnerable and those unable to work and they should have help to live.

I grew up in a very rural area, fairly poor, very hard work for non land owners - workers werefarm labourers mainly. And there were many people leaving school in the 80s and 90s and then abusing the system - picking up the dole, laughing about it, straight to the pub until it ran out; I remember a dog called Giro. People just sold a bit of marijuana for extra work. After moving to a bigger town, I came across families like this, where the dad would start it off, and the children would just grow up and do the same.

There were jobs around. As students homes for holidays, we picked up work without trouble, and could have stayed on, got promotions etc.

How do you deal with these situations? How can we make sure we are not making cuts to those who desperately need it, whilst absolutely changing the mind sets of able bodied men (and women) who have grown up believing they are entitled to money for nothing.

I know quite a few parents who have never worked, although I've no clue how much they get in benefits. It does worry me that the mindset gets passed on though.
We had a family where all the children struggled academically and the mother couldn't help because she was illiterate (absent father so no support from that side). My work tried so hard to help her and the children, but she wasn't interested in engaging. One day, one of the children asked the caretaker why he bothered coming in so early to do his job. The caretaker replied that he did it to earn money, and the boy said that nobody needed to earn money because the government gives it to you.

DH knew girls at school back in the 90s who were totally open about the 'advantages' of getting pregnant young (he's very lefty so not the type to make this up). I doubt it has any 'advantages' now though!

Funny isn't it. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation scoured the country looking for generational families on benefits and couldn't find them.

Oh, and 22k for a single person on benefits is complete and utter bollocks.

I don't know why they couldn't find them, Dawn. There were a lot in the area where I worked. Pretty easy to find.

I have a friend who a few years back worked the number of hours allowed for income support (4 I believe it was) to ensure she could continue claiming, the job where she worked this 4 hours had many more hours to offer plus free childcare. This in itself is not bad but the fact she had a partner who lived with them and worked full time is what was out of order, they lied and said he wasn't living there.

This is not the only case I know of close to me but I do live in an area with a large number of people on benefits.

Firstly, I believe the majority of benefit claimants are in genuine need. I also totally agree that tax evasion is wrong and should be investigated more.

BUT, and I'll willingly admit I have zero evidence to back this up, I don't believe the percentage figure of only 1 or 2% of claimants are fraudulent. I think it's higher and the figure is manipulated as there would be, quite rightly, complete outrage by taxpayers to know the true figure of people completely able to work but chosing not to/ playing the system/never worked/no intention of ever working etc. And it's too late imo as we're now on further generations who see how easy it can be. That it's the norm.

And yes I understand when people say "but it isn't easy anymore" to claim benefits. But if that's the case, why haven't the terminally workshy been called upon before now? Why does it continue? It's evident from this thread that indeed, there are MANY people that folk know that have fiddled the system. And it's utterly shameful that genuine folk with genuine need are denied certain help, or feel like they're jumping through hoops.

Although I have stated that I know plenty of people who have a comfortable lifestyle on benefits both personally and through work and have no intention of doing anything else I also know many people in desperate need and barely survive on benefits.

The people that are desperately struggling are not feckless, they have just got themselves into a deep hole through no fault of their own and can't get out.

There isn't a one size fits all approach to benefits that would work and help the desperate but at the same time give a kick up the arse to those who openly laugh at the system that gives them so much for nothing in return.

dawn - I am a bit about that research
A long time ago now but at school I knew a couple of children whose grandparents had lost their jobs when the mills shut in the 50/60s...their parents had never worked and they weren't expecting to work (I am not in touch any more, so no idea if they did or not).
Looking at that the grandparent's had worked...just hadn't for 20-30 yrs ...so wouldn't be included ...
And I guess if you work for 2 weeks on a forced placement or even a year that means you don't count as 'never worked' ...

Really dawn? I've never heard of the foundation you've mentioned, but I'm wondering if they perhaps didnt look quite hard enough...conveniently. Maybe they made up their search, like people I know used to make up their job search record for JSA

Perhaps the Joseph Rowntree Foundation only "scoured" naice areas.

There is NO WAY they scoured Scunthorpe.......

One of my distant relatives was a GP until he retired a few years ago, his surgery was in a fairly deprived area in West Lancs.

About 20 years ago he was in the local paper after one of his patients complained that he'd cancelled her "free" taxi to a weekly hospital appointment, saying she was "entitled" to be chauffered to this hospital appointment for something like having a blood check, I dont recall exactly what it was, but it was nothing major.

He had an apology and a retraction printed when he went to the paper stating that as his patient could afford a return taxi trip to the bingo a few times a week (where she'd won circa £50k a few months previously), she could stump up for a taxi to the hospital herself, or get the bus, rather than having taxpayers cover it for her.

The same man also wrote "ergophobia" on someone's sicknote.

Yes two families.

Two couples with one teenage child. Doesn't work, never worked and messed up every interview so far that they have had to attend. They have got away with it for years and I don't know how they do it but considering the little money they get their life isn't one to envy.

Another family by their own words keep having kids to get more money. They have 9 children and neither have ever worked. I no longer see them so it is very likely that one of them have been forced into work now.

I believe these situations are rare and getting rarer all the time so they do not concern me at all. I am happy to let a few slip by instead of punishing those who really need it.

Have also been called a scrounger myself. I am not though but people like to jump to conclusions.

Bursury - no idea. May have been, although it can't have been massively easy, given that ExH was deemed ineligible because he wasn't ill enough. I can't remember what medical stuff she needed to produce. I think she did for her employer, and she was very proud of the fact that she knew how to behave and what to say in order to trick the doctor.

Well, the only open boasting I have heard regarding money from the state is by my rather well off parents, who enjoy telling people they spend all their winter fuel allowance on wine .

I was on income support/JSA for a couple of years in my late teens in the early 90s, along with most of my mates....and no, we weren't busting a gut trying to get a job. We lived in squats, and managed to stretch our £40 a week to survive, living on free Hare Krishna food and picking veg off the streets to make big old stews with. There would usually be enough per week for a couple of 2l bottles of cheap cider though . Entertainment was provided by going on demonstrations and hitching to free festivals. I even knew a couple of dogs called Giro .

Problem is, at the time tax credits didn't exist, so you weren't allowed to do any work and sign on (I was at FE college doing my A levels at the time though- yes, I was that young). The culture changed completely when tax credits were introduced - "you mean I can do seasonal/ part time work too? Brilliant!". These part time jobs soon turned into "proper" jobs, and all my old mates are pillars of the community now.

Aer my post wasn't complaining that I couldn't get a council place, we prefer renting and are lucky to be in a lovely brand new flat.

I was just responding to those who think you pop out a kid under 21 and they give you a 3 bed council house :)

Unfortunately i have 'known' quite a few as my brother is an ex heroin addict. His previous 'friends' some with small children many without and some had children in care. All of these people had flats/houses but rately cars etc or anything of value due to drug costs. They were all often sanctioned due to missing JC appts etc...sent in various courses. Many were classed as sick due to their addictions, some weren't. When any money they had had been spent on drugs they would often 'bin dip ' to feed themselves.

These people are more or less unemployable and even now clean my brother has many associated health problems that prevent him from working FT. His ex gf is now in prison but she was truly unemployable. She had grown up in the care system and had an awful life. She would steal anything she could from anywhere and could not see the issue, she lost a v basic cleaning job due to stealing. These hordes of people are not going to start working and contributing to society. They cost us a lot but the bare minimum JSA is enough to keep them alive and functioning in their own way. They all turn to crime anyway if their money is cut... what else is a govt meant to do with these people other than pay them the most basic level of benefit often to live in appaling condiotions and lead the most dismal of lives.

I know loads of benefit scroungers - those people who 'adjust' the family income to just below the Child Benefit threshold so they can still put that little helper into Tarquin's trust fund.
I know loads of people who 'adjust' their hours so they fall into a category where they receive help.
I know loads of pensioners whose Heating Allowance pays for their winter holidays.

All those of you who claim to know the single mothers living with boyfriends, popping out kids yearly to get an all expenses paid house and suffering with a bad back while working as a mountaineer yada yada - have you reported them? If not, why not? Put your money where your mouth is if you're so so certain.

Whether or not to report is not about being certain it's about not wanting to get friends and family a heavy fine and a possible criminal record if they get caught claiming fraudulently.
I 100% know family and friends who have claimed as a single person while living with a partner but I would never report them because I'm not vindictive.

I 100% know family and friends who have claimed as a single person while living with a partner but I would never report them because I'm not vindictive.

Its nothing to do with being vindictive, it makes you no morally better than them. That kind of person is the reason DH suffers so much every time a brown envelope comes through the door. Put up or shut up. I don't believe you know anyone who is a benefit scrounger. or maybe you're afraid your own little financial indiscretions would be revealed by them in return.

I've met some. There are plenty of jobs round where I live but not enough peoplease willing to do them. Really we should have no one on JSA round here but we do. It's just that they don't want to do the jobs available. there aren't many but they are around. they do a massive disservice to those in society who need the support. However I would rather a system that facilitated this than the alternative

There are cheaters, as well as those who learn the system well enough to take every advantage on offer short of cheating, at every level of society. From benefits recipients, to middle class taxpayers, to busnuss owners and bankers and nigh on up to Lord & Lady Pompous nd their 6th cousin once removed, the Queen.

I am another who would rather the benefit system be generous, as it mostly benefits children, the elderly, and the disabled, even if the benefit is filtered through dishonest family members, or there are scroungers. Maybe
I should say especially since the benefits can be filtered through dishonest relatives.

The tax system likewise has to strike a balance between allowable exceptions and strict regulations. It would be great if those in reciept of various exceptions saw them as a benefit, rather than their due. But I won't hold my breath.

I work with a lot of families who have never and will never work. Most have LD or are victims of abuse. The majority don't feel they are scrounging they just don't have the capacity to work and raise their families.

I know a woman who worked through 2 pregnancies and took care of both children while her husband was not doing anything. Any job jobcentre would offer him was not good enough. Instead he was sitting his balls flat and on Sundays went to church and sang. He also moved his 4 yo DD to the living room to have music studio in her bedroom. He didn't earn any money off said music studio.
I think he is the closest to scrounger that I have met.

The JR Foundation has therefore not been to the NE where I am from then...... how can they say there are no families where no one has ever worked? There are loads of them around. Even the last Government identified about 100,000 core problem families who had heaps of issues from drugs to abuse and directed special help to them.

However benefits are not our biggest issues. Low productivity is, short working hours and the like and how to deal with the cost of the old.

Absolutely there are cheaters at every level of society. DD is friends with two sisters in consecutive year groups. Their parents will be funding two at university for many years. Their Mum is currently calculating how many hours at work she will need to drop so that they qualify for grants and bursaries, (she is a teacher). Fortunately for them, although their Dad is on a low salary, they get a rather nice free house with his job. He is a vicar.

Now that may not be illegal, but I think it's quite questionable ethically, especially from people who are (literally) holier than thou.

I suspect I am in a minority though; people love to play the system.