To ask if you have had any contact with benefit 'scroungers'

[JumpRope]

I utterly believe that we need to protect the poor, vulnerable and those unable to work and they should have help to live.

I grew up in a very rural area, fairly poor, very hard work for non land owners - workers werefarm labourers mainly. And there were many people leaving school in the 80s and 90s and then abusing the system - picking up the dole, laughing about it, straight to the pub until it ran out; I remember a dog called Giro. People just sold a bit of marijuana for extra work. After moving to a bigger town, I came across families like this, where the dad would start it off, and the children would just grow up and do the same.

There were jobs around. As students homes for holidays, we picked up work without trouble, and could have stayed on, got promotions etc.

How do you deal with these situations? How can we make sure we are not making cuts to those who desperately need it, whilst absolutely changing the mind sets of able bodied men (and women) who have grown up believing they are entitled to money for nothing.

Yes, two single mums I used to work with.

They only worked sixteen hours a week minimum wage, yet each had a car, smoked 20 branded cigarettes a day, went out clubbing regularly, one had sky tv, the other had been on holiday to Antigua!!

They refused point blank to do anymore than 16 hours work a week despite having readily available free childcare available to them (kids Grandparents were more than happy to help out). One was also offered a supervisor role ( part time and flexible) and she wouldn't even consider it, there was no need to try and better herself when she got so much in handouts.

Wow, you're defensive aren't you? Actually no, that's not why I have this username. But that's irrelevant really and none of your business. People have all sorts of usernames which don't relate in any way to their lives.

I see you have no decent answer to my post then so I'll draw my own conclusions. You are the one who said tax evasion is ok. I said that cheating is cheating. Most of us don't cheat. End of.

Contribution based benefits with a time limit would be a lot fairer as suggested. It's very niave to believe our teen pregnancy rate or people having numerous children are not linked to the generous benefit system.

Tax credits caused most of the problems, people should never have been allowed to work sixteen hours or to not work at all. The current rule of just twenty four hours a week between a couple to net hundred in WTC is laughable. Many on MN admit to claiming WTC as a SAHP, work just a few hours and won't take overtime or state they can't possibly work as they have children. In real life I imagine the numbers are in there thousands and thousands.

'People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'

I am not a cheat. I have never claimed anything I am not entitled to or stolen money from the government.

Im not at all defensive, you however seem to take got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning Bursary and are on the attack. Have a glass of wine and chill its a Sunday.

And when you say 'even MPs' well yes exactly. That's why the expenses scandal was a scandal.

have, not take. Stoopid Ipad

No, I'm not going to chill until you can explain why tax evasion is morally defensible.

Stop being so angry Bursary, chill.... no more conversing with you. Pick a fight with someone else.

There are not that many jobs for these people which always makes me wonder what the govt are on about So many areas deprived and with no work Plus getting people off sickness benefits doesn't get them into work it just puts them on jobseekers. I also know people who really want to work and do everything required job clubs etc and still unemployed!When you look closely at the figures it is unbelievable they just don't go after the tax evaders rather than the vulnerable. Obviously some people milk it we see them in the gutter press but we never see the people trying everything and still no work

Possibly a bit off-topic, but I remember someone in the early 90's, an IT contractor earning maybe £800 a week, who boasted on his last day (in front of about 20 people including the department head) how he'd managed to get a council flat, as a single 19-year old. His mother working for the council housing department was somehow relevant to the anecdote, but I forget the details. The punch-line of his story was how much he was going to make as a result of exercising his right-to-buy.

He followed that up by loudly telling the department head where he was going wrong in the way he was doing his job.

(This was all in the pub, but it was only lunch-time drinks, so I don't think he was drunk.)

Strangely, he was not one of the many contractors who later returned, when new projects came along.

I am not picking a fight. I took issue with what you said - that people who don't work are doing something wrong (even though they might have a legitimate claim) but people who steal from the government because they don't pay what is due to HMRC are ok.

You have no answer to this except to get personal with me. Hypocrites annoy me.

MoominKoala, the reason why you didn't get a council house and the council didn't want to know was because you didn't go homeless.

You were at Uni, it didn't sound like you knew how to work the system. And the council probably realised someone like you with a reasonable level of education would take steps to find something yourself or have friends or family who might help you/let you sofa surf until you did.

The way of getting a council flat is to go homeless. It's almost impossible to get one if you don't. You have to live in a hostel or a B & B for a while.

In practice this is fair because it assesses need. But hostels and B&Bs are horrible, frightening places you wouldn't want to stay or raise a child in. So in theory it's in need, in practice it ends up that the absolute scumbags who are the ones that make them such awful places to stay get council housing. And people who can take other 'soft' homeless options such as sleeping on a friends floor miss out. And believe me a friends floor is preferable to those places. At least you won't be robbed blind.

If you don't like debates, it's best not to make controversial statements about tax evasion being ok when the NHS is very likely to disappear in the next 5 years.

I tend not to want to speak to people whether in real life nor on the internet that have an aggressive manner, and this how you are coming across.

My mum only ever worked part time yet she qualified for a pension, pension credits and and some disability payments towards the end. She used to pay my sisters utility bills as she took home over double the amount my sister did. Now sister is 62 and watching her retirrment age move further away.

I am not aggressive. I asked you a question which you don't want to answer.

Another benefits bashing thread! Well done, Rupert & Co.

Mumofmonsters. My friend had a baby solely to get the job centre off her back. She wasn't/isn't a scrounger on my book. She looked consistantly for work yet the jc just l
Kept pileing on the pressure, yet no pressure on her partner who walked away to provide her any financial assistance. So she had an ons and lucky get pregnant and was blessed with another beautiful baby. No and hey presto the job centre got off her back. She knows she'll have to find work when this one's five but she said. I'll be able to train for something by then or I might even have another baby. She said she couldn't handle any more pressure of the fear of sanctions. You can't live like that when you've got children. A plumed gob middle class advisor sanctioning for stupid reasons or reasons they dream up, of course people are going to run out and get pregnant and find the easy way out. It's called survival, and let's be honest if we're going to call unemployed single parents lazy there are quite a few married/partnered women who sit on their arses. How about some fair critique and balance here.

babyroobs yes you do have to have worked, and paid into the system, to get the state pension! it is a pension not a handout, how much you get is based on what you have paid in. I have almost 40yrs of contributions, won't get the full pension as I was paying into a work based pension for a while and contracted out some of my state pension to that. My biggest problem is that we were paying into a substantial pension for dh, which I would share - even if he went under a bus - but he took that with him when he went off with the OW. I got the house. Have a look here and check your eligibility www.gov.uk/state-pension/eligibility

I know one or two small business owners who cook the books.

I don't know anyone who is unemployed.

I know lots and lots of people who work extremely hard and don't get paid enough.

I know a few people who do very little and get an average salary.

That's everyone I know.

Well actually, crustaway. You are the one who saw fit to judge me by my user name and make personal comments.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say tax evasion is ok on mumsnet before and I was interested to know why you have this double standard.

I also know people from school who have had child after child so they don't have to work (every 4 years so that as soon as ins goes to school, another is born

You know my sister? 5 kids, 4 years between each. Every time youngest gets within a year of school she gets pregnant - so she doesn't have to think about getting a job. She has never worked, she is 40, can't go on forever....

I have. MILs cousin had a motability car and associated benefits because he couldn't work due to his bad back. He was actually working as a mechanic.

Anyway, he was found out and the car was taken away. Not sure what else happened.

BUT - I believe he is the exception not the rule! There are people I know who have questionable ethics, but they live in shit houses scraping by day to day - I don't value being unemployed enough to envy their lifestyle.