To wonder if tory voters care about the 1 million.

[Jacobsmum1972]

I bet they don't give a flying monkeys for anyone coming under attack by the Tories. The poor, disabled and tennants.

I have felt close to tears all day because I know what a conservative majority means for so many in this country.

Yes you can get really obscene amounts of benefits, example:

Couple with 3 children in London, 1 parent works 24 hours a week at NMW (£8112 per year), the other doesn't.

Tax credit entitlement: £12,171.18
Council tax benefit: £855.17
Housing Benefit: £17,422.95
Child benefit: £2,501.20

Total benefits entitlement: £32,950.50
Gross salary: £8,112
Income tax: £0
National Insurance: £6
Free school meals (3 children): £1311
Net income: £42,373.50

And before you ask, NO the benefits cap doesn't come into play, because you are eligible if you claim Working Tax credit.

For comparison, second couple, 1 parent works 40 hours a week earning £60,000 a year (cue HOWLS of protest from Mumsnetters when they complain about the cost of living - you are rich, etc. etc.), also 3 children

Total benefits entitlement: ZERO
Gross salary: £60,000
Income tax: £13,403
NI: £4,471
Net income: £42,126

So the £60k family has a lower net income than the £8k family. And is even worse off in reality when you consider things like discounts for WTC recipients, free prescriptions, free dental, free glasses, discounts for leisure activities, and so on.

YY Jobless

This is what is so totally insane about the system. And we are asked to believe the first family is at starvation levels. It's totally risible. Bring on some sensible cuts to benefits.

Thank you jobless for that illustration.

It shows how crazy the benefits system is, that work does not pay at all. Whenever any change is brought in, more is given to the first family in your example, and is taken from the second.

The first family would also get maximum grants for their 3 children if they chose to go to university.

Jobless123 I seriously doubt your figures.

For a start, there is no such thing as Council Tax Benefit any more, so I don't know where you got that figure from.

Also, I am on a low salary at the moment and receive tax credits - I don't get anywhere near £12K! Less than half that.

Also the Housing Benefit should not be counted as income if you're comparing with salaries IMO because it is not money which the recipient is free to use as they wish - it goes directly into the pockets of a Landlord (and is very often not the full amount, so needs to have more money added out of benefits).

If they move to a smaller house / cheaper area, they won't be able to access any more money, the housing benefit will shrink accordingly. So it's not really the same thing as other kinds of income.

The people who own their own home on the other hand would be able to move to a smaller house / cheaper area if they choose and then they would have more money in their pockets as a result.

Council tax benefit is called council tax reduction.

It means those on a low income can pay either none or reduced council tax.

Joblesses figures are perfectly plausible given the insane cost of housing in London.

That doesn't mean the person on a low income shouldn't live in London as they're clearly doing a low paid and possibly necessary job.

It does mean that someone with what you'd expect a high income may not be financially better off than someone claiming housing benefit.

Not everyone gets council tax reduction.

What the rules are, are decided locally, and there is a finite pot of money.

We don't get it despite being on a low income.

I'm not questioning Jobless's rent figures. I'm questioning the £12K which has nothing to do with rent or being in London.

"It does mean that someone with what you'd expect a high income may not be financially better off than someone claiming housing benefit."

The person on a high income is better off as they have access to that money and control of what they spend it on.

The person on a low income but with high rent, doesn't ever see that money.

I'm sorry but you are talking about something I know a lot about!

I am on a low income and I certainly do not get £12K tax credits! Far from it!

Have to laugh at not counting HB as income as it pays the rent. Salaries pay rent and mortgage too, there's no magic pot that covers it

wigglylines, what a lot of absolute rot. If you live in London, even if you own your own home you do not 'have access to that money and control of what you spend it on'. Unless you are mortgage free you will be spending a crippling amount of your income on housing. You have no choice about that.

Totally agree tobysmum - it's crazy to say that people should have the choice to not work more hours and that benefits can top them up. If there are reasons they cannot work full time that is different, but a choice?? Where the hell would the country be if we all decided to choose that?

I want my taxes to fund education, health and benefits for those in real need.

And agree with other posters above - I might decide not to pay my mortgage this month, after all the money is flexible. What a crock.

I would have thought 12,000 was about right for 3 kids tax credits with one parent on a very low income.

20 grand to support 5 people in London isn't a lot.

I think it's a very London/South East specific post.

I am always baffled by the argument that housing benefit should be discounted when looking at total income from benefits.

Most people have to pay housing costs from their (taxed) salaries - how is that different?

Yeah my money that goes on my mortgage isn't really disposable either.

The problem is the stupid cost of housing.

My house costs 2k to live in a month, my SIL in pretty much the same accommodation pays 400 rent as its a council house.

What she doesn't have is the ownership of her place and instead has a lifetime tenancy. Mine is eventually an asset.

I'm definitely not benefit bashing btw. The problem is the cost of housing and a low waged economy.

Wigglylines don't answer if you don't want to. But what would you actually have to earn to cover what you get in benefits and include paying tax. That's the problem. Benefits are tax free. Salaries aren't. Most people have housing costs unless they've paid off their mortgage.

Not all benefits are tax free. Carer's allowance for example.

Jobless is right. I used to use a similar example - twin sisters, one on benefits, never worked one child, no father around or paying, housing provided etc. Twin sister on £50k a year pays £14k tax.NI, £14k mortgage and £10k a year full time childcare for one child and her travel, council tax, work clothes etc etc is no better off.

So the solution which is very hard to achieve is to make the benefits arrangements sufficiently awful people seek to avoid that whilst making work pay - a mixture of carrot and stick which I don't think a benefits cap of £26k a year which is something like £34k of before tax income is anywhere low enough to achieve.

I totally disagree with that.

I don't think we should make benefits so awful people try to avoid it.

Who's to say the sister earning 50k wasn't more able, more educated. Or the one relying on benefits doesn't have a whole raft of health issues.

The point should be to RAISE wages instead of businesses getting away with paying low taxes (some offshore) and low wages.

And to BUILD houses so everyone has somewhere affordable and decent to live.

It's not a race to the bottom. We should be raising standards for everyone and narrowing the gap
between the richest and the poorest - which causes us terrible societal problems.

With regards to my example the figures are correct, and taken from entitledto.co.uk.

It's not really true that it's London-specific. The total is £42.4k, of which £17.4k is housing benefit, nearly covering the entire max 3-bed rate of £18.2k.

If you moved to let's say Southend, which is hardly salubrious, it would be £9.6k LHA, which is a reduction of £8,600 off the total, giving £33,800 net income, which is still more than a £45k gross salary, which puts you into the supposedly affluent higher rate tax bracket.

How the fuck are you going to find a job paying £45k in Southend? Ok, you could commute to London, but that's going to cost you another £8k in gross income for the travel card, plus all the other expenses, and instead of walking home from your 9am-till-lunchtime job at the local primary school, you are instead facing a 12 hour day when you factor in commuting.

I think cutting housing benefits should be a priority - as people have pointed they don't benefit the recipient directly - London at up to £21.5k/year of tax payer cash isn't intrinsically better than Sheffield costing a max of £7.8k/year.

But it does still leave the fact that an unskilled job + tax credits is excessively lucrative, if you have children, when compared with most professional jobs in this country.

Jobless no free school
Meals if you get working tax credit. Also is council tax really that cheap in London?

Also the Housing Benefit should not be counted as income if you're comparing with salaries IMO because it is not money which the recipient is free to use as they wish - it goes directly into the pockets of a Landlord (and is very often not the full amount, so needs to have more money added out of benefits).

What. The. Fuck.........

Well, the recipient of the Salary is not free to use it as they wish if they have rent to pay or a mortgage to service. That (often v large) portion of their taxed salary also goes straight into the pockets of a landlord or Building Society (to whom they pay massive amounts of interest on top of the capital borrowed).

Your logic is bizzare and happenstance. And you are 100% WRONG.

Jobless - how would cutting Housing benefit help?

Where would people in our low wages economy live? Who's going to do the low wages jobs in London/SE?

Unless you couple it with a mass house building programme immediately you're just going to make people homeless.

I think if you are physically able to work, then out of work benefits should be pretty Spartan. If you can work, you should work.

I think wages should be higher - tax credits are massively inefficient and effectively subsidising businesses. Reduce corporation taxes and drive up the min wage so that you don't get the bonkers situation of people refusing to do overtime etc because it impacts their WTC (yes, I have experienced this first hand)

I would hugely subsidise childcare so that it pays to work

I think that people who are physically unable to work should be comfortably supported and have access to great healthcare.