to think that until the Left engage rather than name call, there will be a Tory govt?

[ApplePaltrow]

Over the last year every thread on UKIP or tory voters has been 80% name calling. Over and over people have called them idiots, racists, disablist and worse. Any attempt to discuss calmly any potential valid concerns were met with vitriol. Even post the election, most of the commentary has been that the electorate were duped or that they were evil cunts.

AIBU to think that this is part of the problem? It turns out that when you name call, people are quiet - but don't change their views! UKIP are wrong - 100%. But people had fears and concerns about the future of the country and instead of engaging with them, the left made them feel ashamed and told them to shut up. So they went to UKIP and they abandoned Labour.

I think a big issue and very prominent on mumsnet is that the anti-fascist working class seems to despise (what they perceive to be as) the "softly pro fascist" working class. There seems to be huge contempt on the basis that "we grew up similarly and I didn't fall for it". They have the evangelical zeal of ex smokers. But not everyone is you. And you have to meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.

You can't win people without respecting them. Part of respecting them is listening to them. (John Harris at the Guardian is actually pretty good on this.) Labour will not win again until they realize that.

My opinion is that it's simpler than that, Labour won't win until they have a coherent and believable plan.

YABU. Namecalling both sides but that's not most people. Labour need to be credible with a good leader. I don't see the Tories being too respectful tbh, although they may talk the talk.

YANBU. I've been saying this for a while. Rather then telling someone they are wrong, listen to their concerns and address them and you are much more likely to change their minds. I hope labour will engage with voters again.

holdyourown

Not the parties, the supporters. Tory voters don't even tell people they are going to vote Tory en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shy_Tory_Factor

I kinda think that the vast majority of Conservative voters didn't decide to stubbornly vote as a fuck-you response to someone calling them a mean name on Mumsnet or other discussion sites. I do, however, think that the continual name calling and personal vitriol directed towards Ed Miliband - from taking the piss out of how he ate, to calling his dead father a traitor - created a significant credibility problem for him.

There are 9 national UK newspapers. 6 of them supported the Conservatives (Sun, FT, Times, Telegraph, Mail, Independent). One supported UKIP (Express). Two supported Labour (Mirror, Guardian). That is a pretty challenging drumbeat to run against.

Very well said OP. I hope they can learn from this and stop spouting so much bile and hatred and but I very much doubt it.

Not a goady thread this,eh?

There's been name calling on all sides all through the campaign. No group has the moral high ground on this issue.

I think that you are probably right. Labour needs to listen properly, not just to what people are saying, but to what the fears and worries are behind that, and then engage people to address those problems in more positive ways.

So instead of, for example, making half-hearted and unconvincing promises about immigration control, they need to come up with policies which acknowledge people's concerns (valid or imagined) and take those into account.

ThatBloodyWoman

No! It's not goady, that's the point.

labourlist.org/2015/05/the-long-road-back/
labourlist.org/2015/05/we-motivated-our-activists-not-the-country/

Look, I'm not saying that Labour are wrong. I'm saying that they approached UKIP and tory undecideds with contempt not respect and understanding. And that is fatal. That's my point. This is not a loss, it's the first time since 1983 that an incumbent govt has increased its seats. This is a profound rejection of Labour and I'm trying to explain why I think this is the case.

Yes, I've seen Godwin's law in action today.

But it was someone saying that describing people as selfish was a direct slope down to Nazism. They were explicit and repeated this over several posts, so it wasn't a slip of the tongue.

No one votes Tory because a random on the internet has called them a cunt.

Yes but there's terminally stupid and crass in All parties to be fair.

However the hysteria and drama about the election results on mumsnet today and the name calling has been pretty daft and best ignored.

Most people here can debate sensibly though.

I totally agree with you on listening. Thatcher got kicked when she stopped listening so did Tony and Gordon.

Fed up of posting this but labour have ignored their core voters and they fucked off to UKIP, SNP and Tories.

You start ignoring and belittling people's concerns and this is what happens.

Been demonstrated on mumsnet today. It's sad. Working people deserve better.

A poster attacked me earlier for using this word working people as it showed I was ignoring the disabled.

You couldn't really make it up.

I agree OP.

All day (on BBC1), I've watched Labour blaming other people. It was the SNPs fault for stealing votes, it was the Tories' fault for (insert whatever expletive you prefer), it was the Lib Dem's fault for trying to work for the greater good in coalition.

No. It's simpler than that. Too many people just didn't like what Labout stand for or the people involved.

When Labour actually care WHY people didn't vote for them, and do something to appeal to more than the Metropolitan elite, then MAYBE they will get re-elected.

I agree op....it was the refusal to discuss or address immigration by the major parties which led to the rise of ukip IMO. Politicians really need to listen to the public.

The trouble is, addressing people's concerns is difficult when in my area, what it comes down to, after ten minutes of conversation about how the schools need to be resourced better to cope with greater numbers of "their" children and the GPs need to be resourced better to cope with "their" elderly parents, the person you're talking to thinks you're onside and gets to the meat of it - that they wouldn't want to work with one because they're lazy and stink of curry

It happens again and again and again. Nastiness floating just under the surface, that's never the first thing they say to you, but comes out after you've got to know someone a bit and they think they can relax around you.

usualsuspect333

No one votes Tory because a random on the internet has called them a cunt.

That's a strawman and not what I said. For the past 10 years or so, there has been an increasing sense of alienation from the major parties for many. The rise of the BNP, then UKIP (and the SNP) shows that people are angry. The immigration conversation exploded after being verboten for years.

Labour kept referring to Farage as the bogeyman and claiming all sorts of terrible things would happen if he got into power instead of trying to engage with WHY people were attracted to him. This board is an example of that. Stating anything about immigration except "immigration is the best thing ever" was torn to pieces, godwin's law etc.

The point is that people felt afraid. And Labour has never ever responded effectively to that fear.

HappySpills

Power is a privilege. If you can't hear someone make a racist remark and at least attempt to react with empathy and understanding, you shouldn't be in it.

Certainly there should've attempts to understand why people respond to immigration with racist reactions and empathy should be the default position but it shouldn't be pandered to.

should've = should be

well, yes I just said this on another thread, Atrocious Ed declaring " No I will not give the public a referendum I don't believe they are able to make such a big decision, oh but please vote for me"

Bizzare.

Arrogant, Love themselves, egotistical.

The point is that people felt afraid

People have had good reason to be afraid and it was never addressed by the Labour government and not by Lib Dems either.

Labour clearly lost the election due to a failure to take Tory seats in England and Wales. I don't think it's self-evident what the reasons are. Plausible candidates include, but are not limited to: failure to listen; the wrong immigration policy; the picture painted of them in the press; economics and incumbency; fear of an SNP coalition; etc. As Andrew Rawnsley said this morning, they can be argued to have lost in Scotland for not being left wing enough and to have lost in England for being too left wing. So the correct path forward will be hard to make out.

Certainly there should've attempts to understand why people respond to immigration with racist reactions There should also be attempts to understand why race got dragged into a numbers issue over immigration.

Slamming racist down peoples throats when they can see with their own eyes the crisis their town is in, gagging people like a typical socialist state.