to think that until the Left engage rather than name call, there will be a Tory govt?

[ApplePaltrow]

Over the last year every thread on UKIP or tory voters has been 80% name calling. Over and over people have called them idiots, racists, disablist and worse. Any attempt to discuss calmly any potential valid concerns were met with vitriol. Even post the election, most of the commentary has been that the electorate were duped or that they were evil cunts.

AIBU to think that this is part of the problem? It turns out that when you name call, people are quiet - but don't change their views! UKIP are wrong - 100%. But people had fears and concerns about the future of the country and instead of engaging with them, the left made them feel ashamed and told them to shut up. So they went to UKIP and they abandoned Labour.

I think a big issue and very prominent on mumsnet is that the anti-fascist working class seems to despise (what they perceive to be as) the "softly pro fascist" working class. There seems to be huge contempt on the basis that "we grew up similarly and I didn't fall for it". They have the evangelical zeal of ex smokers. But not everyone is you. And you have to meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.

You can't win people without respecting them. Part of respecting them is listening to them. (John Harris at the Guardian is actually pretty good on this.) Labour will not win again until they realize that.

I think the inability to discuss immigration in a sensible measured way without immediately being branded racist has allowed UKIP to flourish. Remember Gordon Brown calling that woman a "bigot" for raising it?

I say this as an immigrant from a Muslim family.

HappySpills

I think looking around Europe today, refusing to engage with voters for fear of "pandering" is hubris that no politician today can afford.

My point is that I'm not slamming "racist" doen people's throats for attempting to point out problems within immigration. What I'm saying is that I've attempted to have the discussion about immigration with other people locally and I'm not the one who brings race into it. They're always the ones who, after a period of time testing the water with "the services just can't cope with the influx of need", bring race into it.

There are opinions that Ed Balls is one of the best economist amongst Labour MP's (he lost his seat yesterday). Was he involved in creating Labour analysis and policies? Who created them.
I haven't listened to the news much today but blamimg anyone is waste of energy and leaves bad feelings behind.

I saw earlier that Chuka Umunna who is Labour MP for Stretham and was shadowMinister for small business and enterprise is bookies favourite to replace Miliband. It would be interesting to have someone fairly young to lead Labour party. He is a lawyer and worked I believe in the past in the city.

Whoever leads Labour will have tough job anyway.

(Almost) Everything you think you know about political parties and personalities is filtered through a predominantly right-wing press.

I hate the whole 'listen to people' infantilisation of political discourse.

They are political parties for whom you vote. London alone has a population of 6 million. The whole rhetoric of 'listening to the people' is an idiocy of scale.

I agree OP.

And No one votes Tory because a random on the internet has called them a cunt no, but it makes me that little bit more determined to register my vote, and this year I made sure ds1 voted for the first time.

YADNBU. The whole sticking fingers in ears and singing "la, la, la, we're not listening" or screaming "racist!" at anyone who dares to raise any kind of debate over immigration is WHY so many people have deserted Labour.
It's been so evident on here today, the name calling has been absolutely atrocious and just proves that if you dare to have an alternative view point, or question something, you get shouted down, told "ODFOD", and ridiculed.
Until the left start LISTENING they're going to keep on haemorrhaging voters left, right and centre.

I'd like a concrete explanation of what people mean by "engaging" and "listening"

Through wasn't your son interested in making an informed decision?

ilovesooty

I'd start with not calling people nazis and saying they hate disabled people.

I meant something concrete by the Labour party themselves to render themselves more attractive and electable. How are they supposed to "engage" with the electorate and "listen" to get those votes back?

sooty I did have a a few days of talking to him about the parties, ideals, aims etc and he said he wasn't interested in voting. As he was at home on polling day I took him along with me just to see the process, and he decided to vote at the last minute. I vote Conservative, but I genuinely don't mind who my DSes vote for-it's their call and I think it's a private matter, should they want it to be.

Who do you mean by 'the left', apple? Are they a homogenous entity? Do they all live together in a big house?
Who are this 'left' who call .... you ...a nazi?
I'm guessing it won't be me, who doesn't throw the word nazi around. Or many Labour MPs, dho are way too sensible.
But at the same time, you say this left must listen, suggesting you do mean those lefties coonected to lines of power.
So who do you mean by 'lefties'?
My guess is that your thinking on this lacks clarity.

Ilovesooty- they are supposed to play the image game, whereby they have some leader figure on whom people can project a fantasy of some empathetic yet powerful affective intimate who 'listens' and 'engages'.
It's all bollocks. Politics in late capitalist societies is necessarily heavily mediated. To wallow in the fantasy of some sort of political intimacy is a wilful confusion of political and affective spheres and a purposeful willing suspension of didbelief.
For the record, I don't think this I'd an issue with conservative voters per SE. I think it's an issue with modern electorates.
A

So how is labour to "engage" with the electorate to get those votes back?

I keep asking for people to define exactly what they should be doing but no one's answering.

Yes thecat

I'm inclined to agree.

I'd hazard a guess that some of those ukip voters won't return to labour unless they hear what they want to hear about immigration. In some areas that means banning the burka, not allowing any multicultural celebration or education and ideally sending those foreigners back to where they came from. No amount of "engagement" is going to make any difference.

Great, so here's an idea. Instead of just listening to the tories and trying to outflank them, here's what they should do: sit down and work out what they actually stand for. Not what the tories stand for (burning disabled people, selling the NHS to terrorists, eating babies etc), what they - the Labour Party - stand for.

They don't have to stand on every street corner doing a nigel farage with a pint of beer but they do need to actually look beyond polls or votes to WHAT people want/fear/believe. Speak to non labour community activists. I consider UKIP a form of grassroots community activism. Talk to the people voting them. Talk to "little englanders" that they despise. Talk to people in London. Don't ask them about "party affiliation". Look at their communities: what are their concerns, what are their hopes, what are their goals? What is possible? What can the UK actually be? You want to create a full picture, not a narrow one based on which is the most salient issue for voters on one day every 5 years.

And most importantly: what is possible? What is possible to do in 2015 in a globalized world? Nobody in the electorate believes that the UK can go back in time to an age of cushy full employment and nurses who made you a sandwich. Nobody believes that you can defy the global economic structure and kick all the rich people out. Nobody believes that we can just "get rid of London" or nationalise everything or get rid of private property or whatever people say on here. There's no point putting forward unrealistic promises. People twice now have been more believing of the tories who have offered "more hardship to come" than Labour who've offered "a return to the good times". No one believes it.

Labour need to sit down and actually construct a positive inclusive complete realistic vision of what the UK can be. That is a true alternative. Then flow polices out from there and STICK TO THEM. No wishwashy back and forth surges left and right.

Really it was a two horse race, Lab or Tory, and tbh, Tory is the best of a bad bunch, and that is why I voted for them.

thecatfromjapan Fri 08-May-15 19:19:21
Who do you mean by 'the left', apple? Are they a homogenous entity? Do they all live together in a big house?

I mean people and political entities who identify as politically left-wing. Are we pretending that this is no longer an acceptable shorthand?

Who are this 'left' who call .... you ...a nazi?

I didn't say they called me a Nazi. I said they called UKIP and tory supporters bigots and fascists and there is plenty of evidence that they have. Suggest google.

I'm guessing it won't be me, who doesn't throw the word nazi around.

Good for you?

Or many Labour MPs, dho are way too sensible.

But they tweet photos of English flags? Or call voters bigots?

But at the same time, you say this left must listen, suggesting you do mean those lefties coonected to lines of power.

I wasn't unclear but thanks.

So who do you mean by 'lefties'?

I wasn't unclear but thanks.

My guess is that your thinking on this lacks clarity.

I wasn't unclear but thanks.

Poor OP. You feel so ashamed of voting Tory that you have to scrabble around desperately to try to claim the moral high ground by acting all hurt that the other lot are being so nasty to you. How utterly ghastly it must be for you.

Here's a suggestion. Why not embrace your inner Katie Hopkins and admit that you actually couldn't give a damn about people who are poor, or homeless, or sick or disabled? You'll feel much better about it.

Once you've done that, perhaps you can set about working out who should be on the receiving end of the £12bn a year cuts the Conservatives are planning to make to the welfare budget. Apparently they're having difficulty deciding:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32599298