to think that until the Left engage rather than name call, there will be a Tory govt?

[ApplePaltrow]

Over the last year every thread on UKIP or tory voters has been 80% name calling. Over and over people have called them idiots, racists, disablist and worse. Any attempt to discuss calmly any potential valid concerns were met with vitriol. Even post the election, most of the commentary has been that the electorate were duped or that they were evil cunts.

AIBU to think that this is part of the problem? It turns out that when you name call, people are quiet - but don't change their views! UKIP are wrong - 100%. But people had fears and concerns about the future of the country and instead of engaging with them, the left made them feel ashamed and told them to shut up. So they went to UKIP and they abandoned Labour.

I think a big issue and very prominent on mumsnet is that the anti-fascist working class seems to despise (what they perceive to be as) the "softly pro fascist" working class. There seems to be huge contempt on the basis that "we grew up similarly and I didn't fall for it". They have the evangelical zeal of ex smokers. But not everyone is you. And you have to meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.

You can't win people without respecting them. Part of respecting them is listening to them. (John Harris at the Guardian is actually pretty good on this.) Labour will not win again until they realize that.

hackmum

Thank you for proving my point right here on this thread.

For the record:

1. I didn't vote Tory. I didn't get my postal vote so didn't vote for anyone.
2. I have previously voted both Labour and Tory
3. A strong Labour govt is good for both Labour AND the Tories. Them getting their act together is good for the country, not just Labour supporters.

Hilarious Hackmum, assuming your being sarcastic.

Of course Op its better for everyone to have viable alternatives.

You are unclear. You CANNOT homogenise 'the left' like that. It's a blurry concept; a porously-bordered signifier.
The idea of all of those who either self-identify as left, or are designated as such by some third-party going somewhere and concertedly doing a bit of name-calling is plain daft.
I'm pretty left. I have called no-one a nazi.

I don't know why I'm engaging with someone who couldn't get their act together to vote. That's poor, frankly.

If you read HappySpills post at 18:21:40...
Do you think the people she describes are bigots?
Or do they have legitimate concerns?
Or is a moderately legitimate concern being inflated out of all proportion by some underlying bigotry?

*I made sure ds1 voted for the first time.

I meant something concrete by the Labour party themselves to render themselves more attractive and electable. How are they supposed to "engage" with the electorate and "listen" to get those votes back?

Here's what Labour think of the electorate if they dare to mention immigration:

"Ugh everything! She's just a sort of bigoted woman that said she used to be Labour. I mean it's just ridiculous."

That's what Labour mean by "engage".

Thank you OP for articulating my feelings re the vilification of anyone who might vote Tory.

Some of the other comments on this thread seem designed to either
belittle other posters opinions, or to try and demonstrate an ability to spew words which sound superficially clever, but mean bugger all.
As Gerti posted, some post solely to wind people up, when this thread had the makings of an interesting debate.

I think it's a bit early to expect 'The Left' to discuss this issue calmly. It's been less than 24 hours since people found out it was to be another Tory government. Tory threads telling people where they're going wrong is bound to ruffle feathers.

Well, mine was a genuine question, but hey ho...

The reason Labour didn't 'address' immigration is they have no solution (nor do the Conservatives). While we are a member of the EU with free movement across borders, and our economy is improving with jobs available (for people who don't mind working all hours and living in crappy housing) - people will be coming here.

Research (focus groups?) showed that every time they mentioned immigration as a problem, the UKIP vote went up because people got the message that immigation was a problem. How would you deal with that?

Our points system is already getting a bit silly - we deported an expert on UK-China relations for spending too much time out of the country, we are cocking up a previously thriving education industry by denying student visas - what would you do differently?

squoosh I have been following these threads, and all political threads for weeks and months.

There is immense bullying of anyone who has said they vote ukip or tory. If you have not seen it perhaps there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. But didums, a few Labour feathers are being gently ruffled

I have seen posters on the right being bludgeoned with axes.

YABU to say "John Harris at the Guardian is actually pretty good at this". Your mind is made up no matter what, but you have no skin in the game. You deserve every name you get.

Oh ignore that ^^ OP, I apologise wholeheartedly. I'm just pissed off.

The reason Labour didn't 'address' immigration is they have no solution

No, they don't think there has ever been anything wrong with immigration
( they never actually counted who came here) and its not clear whether Blair et al deliberately flooded the country with the poorest EU immigrants to "rub the rights nose in it" and of course the very poorest of the UK, or, whether they wanted more voters. ( back fired).

(for people who don't mind working all hours and living in crappy housing) as a short term solution to send £££ back to Poland or Albania where living costs are vastly out of synch with living costs here. There by creating a situation where men are willing to put up with the hideous wicked LL putting them up in hovels, and living on a shoe string, to send money back home because its worth so much more back home. For local communities you get anti social behavior from lots of men living together in confined conditions, and you get people who are not engaged with the locals and have no intention nor indeed any need to be.

They have their accmd, their jobs and their friends, and their shops. Great opportunity for them, not so great for the families and people living near this.

Our points system is already getting a bit silly

I assume this will be the same for every country that has a points system there will always be mistakes. Its how these mistakes are dealt with thats the key.

Just like Labour made a mistake and tried to send back persecuted Zimbabweans back to Mugabe to be tortured. They were trying to show they were actually tough on immigrants . Brown had to do a u turn. ( only after mass outcry and out rage)

Our mass un controlled immigration system is not just silly, it has crippled services, smashed and broken them.

Poor Gobbo and her sad face that has seen hideous axings.

Wanting more voters is a pretty crappy reason, since EU citizens can only vote in local not general elections. Despite what you might have heard.

This is the thing, people invent their own facts, throw them around, and if you suggest they may not be the case, you get 'I'm entitled to my opinion!'
Yes, but not your own facts.

And there is no way to solve our perceived 'immigration problem'. Full stop.

If UKIP had got a majority yesterday, and had stopped immigration for 5 years, but stuck to their suggestion they wouldn't throw anyone out; there would still be brown people speaking foreign in your neighbourhood, there would still be Polish delis on your high street, there would still be mosques in the city skyline.
The NHS wouldn't improve, the housing crisis wouldn't improve.

In short, none of the UKIP voters would be happy. So if even a UKIP majority gov't wouldn't make UKIP voters happy, what would make UKIP voters happy? And how the hell is anybody supposed to deliver that ?

rootypig

Apology accepted. Maybe this was too early but I thought it was worth raising. I really like John Harris tbh.

SorryToDisturbYou

I'm not sure it is about tinkering with immigration rather than responding to a perceived shortage of resources and lack of control. FYI this is what it means to listen. Just hearing "stop immigration" isn't enough.

Yes he's excellent. You don't have to be so apologetic for liking people on the left, you know. History is on our side

I think people generally voted for them because they felt it's a case of better the devil you know for now. Just like when Labour got in again after the illegal war....

I think there are certainly some (selfish) people who voted for them because they don't really care about those who are disadvantaged. But I'd say they were in the minority.

Here we go again - selfish and not caring about the disadvantaged if you voted Tory.............automatically assuming that everything is rosy in the voter's world!

The New Statesman nails it:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/10-delusions-about-labour-defeat-watch-out