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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to agree with Farage?

121 replies

Sallyingforth · 03/05/2015 11:22

UKIP's policies and their candidates are generally revolting, but I had to agree with him when he said.
"This is wholly unacceptable in a civilised society"

The Labour party held a sexually segregated election rally, and with more seats for men than for women.

www.order-order.com/2015/05/02/everydaysexualsegregation

OP posts:
MistressMia · 04/05/2015 13:41

The question is so you force change - and risk alienating or reducing participation

What evidence do you have that this alienation will occur. Give the religious conservatives an inch and they'll take a mile.

In the Gilgit-Baltistan region of Pakistan there are elections coming up in June. A country that previously had a female Prime Minister has now got a region where the women have been barred from voting on the say so of religious leaders. The main political parties are being criticised by the liberals for contributing to this by launching their political manifestos from mosques and quietly acquiescing to subsequent demands to enforce the tribal councils ban on women voting.

blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/27519/gilgit-baltistan-elections-the-nth-nail-in-the-coffin-of-women-equality/

In other news failure to speak out robustly against muslim homophobia has resulted in Islamic extremists becoming emboldened to threaten death against any teachers in Birmingham who say that being gay is normal.

Muslim radicals threaten to kill teachers

Oh and another shooting in the US today Islamists against free speech.

Years of being culturally sensitive and making allowances is taking us backwards and adversely impacting not just muslim women but non-muslims too.

UncertainSmile · 04/05/2015 13:43

MistressMia, I'm always very interested in your posts on this subject. I know your opinion comes from your past experiences. Could I ask where you stand politically?

UncleT · 04/05/2015 13:45

What a novel thread.

Original poster
Sallyingforth · 04/05/2015 13:56

Oh and another shooting in the US today Islamists against free speech.
But that event was using free speech deliberately to cause as much offence as possible and provoke a reaction.
I agree with the rest of your post though.

OP posts:
ltk · 04/05/2015 13:56

I still don't get why single sex schools are different. It is schooling segregated by gender. If you had a community that preferred single sex education, but only had the money and population for a single school building, why not send boys to one side and girls to another? It makes the gender segregation more stark, but no different. They are numerous schools where the boys and girls buildings are fairly close and they even share facilities, but not with boys and girls at the same time.

CloserToFiftyThanTwenty · 04/05/2015 13:57

Part of the problem with segregated seating is that it perpetuates the view that it is immoral for men and women to mingle - and that non-Muslim audiences that do not segregate are morally inferior. It's then easier to push the message that "The West" is morally corrupt, should be fought, does not respect Muslim values etc.

ltk · 04/05/2015 14:02

But the men-only Travellers Club is okay?

Original poster
Sallyingforth · 04/05/2015 14:04

Single sex schools are just that - separate schools with equal standards and equal freedoms and equal facilities.

If you still don't understand the difference with the situation in the OP then

OP posts:
MistressMia · 04/05/2015 14:04

But that event was using free speech deliberately to cause as much offence as possible and provoke a reaction

It was a provocative event for sure... drawing the prophet Muhammed

And yes Muslims would find it offensive but are you saying that Islamic blasphemy laws now apply to non-muslims and that one shouldn't engage in something if it is offensive to muslims ?

In which case the extremists are justified in threatening the teachers.

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 14:05

Mia, I don't have evidence beyond anecdote and personal experiences in non-Muslim communities. That's why I asked if anyone could share evidence. None has been forthcoming so far.

Original poster
Sallyingforth · 04/05/2015 14:10

Mia I have every sympathy with you and the examples you gave above are appalling.
But AIUI the event wasn't just simply to draw the prophet. It was getting as many people as possible to draw as many insulting depictions as possible, not for any other reason than to cause the maximum possible offence. To my way of thinking that was just going a step too far.

OP posts:
MistressMia · 04/05/2015 14:16

UncertainSmile I'm not sure I fit neatly into any political category. It depends on the issue, but broadly I would say left of centre.

When I refer to leftie bollocks, I mean the kind of claptrap that the likes of Ken Livingstone comes out with to justify all sorts of behaviour that would he would condemn if it were white people who were saying and doing those things.

I remember years ago first reading about FGM from an Egyptian feminist Nawal el Saadawi and then being aghast at seeing our equivalent, Germaine Greer defending the practice on cultural grounds.

Coyoacan · 04/05/2015 14:22

Uuuf, it is quite clear that the OP put up this thread for a bit of Muslim bashing, UKIP's favourite sport.

You know, I somehow think that Orthodox Jews also separate women from men in their temples and their meetings, but I don't even know, because nobody cares. It is not something to care about, is it?

However with all the other forms of discrimination against women that are going on in mainstream society (for example, cutting benefits majorly affects women), this OP thinks the major issue of the day is whether men can sit beside women at a political meeting.

MistressMia · 04/05/2015 14:27

Sally again you are doing the same thing. Treating muslims differently and pandering to Islam.

I don't need to list all the examples of extremely insulting works of art, plays, books etc that the other faiths revered icons have been subjected to. All hugely offensive to their respective believers.

Original poster
Sallyingforth · 04/05/2015 14:28

Coyacon to come out with rubbish like that you either haven't read all my posts in this thread, or you are deliberately trying to misrepresent them.
But anyway, have a happy life.

OP posts:
Original poster
Sallyingforth · 04/05/2015 14:32

All hugely offensive to their respective believers

True Mia, and I find the deliberate offence to those religions equally wrong. I don't reserve any special protection for Islam. I think it's morally wrong to be deliberately offensive to anyone, whether it's Christians, Muslims or stamp collectors. Why not just be nice to everyone?

OP posts:
UncertainSmile · 04/05/2015 14:35

MistressMia, I'm also on the left but also dislike that kind of moral relativism. I can't abide Livingstone either for his pandering to Islamacists.

UncertainSmile · 04/05/2015 14:40

Islamists, rather.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 04/05/2015 14:40

I agree it is morally wrong to deliberately offend people, but surely it's infinitely worse to attempt to kill people who offend you?

MistressMia · 04/05/2015 14:45

Anyone can find offence about something if they choose to do so, whether actually offensive or not.

Why not take a robust line and 'force' muslims to behave like those of others faiths and none. They can ignore or protest peacefully. By saying 'it was offensive' rather than condemning outright you give succour to the grievance mongering and inadvertently excuse the extremists behaviour.

Right now on Twitter there is much less condemnation by muslims of the shooters than of the event itself. A pattern we see repeated time and time again. There's always some excuse, and plenty of Western useful idiots ready to agree and sympathise with them.

ltk · 04/05/2015 14:50

But the meeting shown had the same equal facilities and content on offer for both genders. Everyone seated in same chairs in the same hall listening to the same speakers. That does not differ from the school example.

If you do not like gender segregation then work to legislate against it. That would outlaw all sorts of segregation... in education, private clubs, Islamic community centres, the Catholic priesthood, Jewish Orthodox synagogues and much more. I agree that we should not segregate by gender in the 21st century, as Farage put it. So let's put an end to all of it. Or is it only offensive when the offenders are Muslim rather than golfers?

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 15:02

Why not take a robust line and 'force' muslims to behave like those of others faiths and none.

Ah yes, all-men clubs, segregated golf clubs, Orthodox Jews erecting signs telling women to walk on one side of the street only during a festival, single-sex university colleges... What a wonderful example.

MistressMia · 04/05/2015 15:12

Jassy that comment was in relation to the subject of offence & free speech and not any of those examples you listed.

If you had bothered reading correctly you would have seen that I've argued against the segregation in this case being (at least intentional overt) discrimination.

FishCanFly · 04/05/2015 15:13

Yanbu to agree, but YABVU to trust him

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 15:23

Mia, I know you find it difficult to accept you might not be 100% correct - but no, your post was not clear on that point. You didn't limit your comment about 'behaviour' to free speech and offence.

I'm glad you've clarified, but I think the statement remains problematic by suggesting that, even within the limits you've now applied that other/no religions behave in a way that doesnt carry similar or no problems.