to agree with Farage?

[Sallyingforth]

UKIP's policies and their candidates are generally revolting, but I had to agree with him when he said.
"This is wholly unacceptable in a civilised society"

The Labour party held a sexually segregated election rally, and with more seats for men than for women.

www.order-order.com/2015/05/02/everydaysexualsegregation

Sounds to me like Farage is crying sexism as an excuse to push his racist agenda - ie being anti muslim.

He's not wrong - but I don't think he was pointing it out for the right reasons.

OP back here. I have no doubt whatever that Farage has pointed this out to pursue the ukip's thinly disguised racism. But that doesn't mean we should ignore what is happening. A major political party endorsing blatant sexual discrimination. It's just unacceptable.

Sally how is it discrimination if they are sitting on opposite sides of the room but with equal view.

Segregation yes, but I don't see discrimination.

But if the problem is 'we can't reach this community's women unless we can assure them of a segregated space', is the answer to include or exclude

I think Jassy has presented a little more nuanced argument than you or Nigel Farage.

And as Coyoacan has pointed out we institutionally collude in segregation every day of the week with single sex schools. I presume both you and Nige think that is equally unacceptable? Why thread about that?

Why no thread about that?

"Tribal politics"

OTOH, the student/supervisor scenario is v much discrimination. The men being discriminated against by not being able to conduct themselves in a normal fashion.

The students notions of modesty and chastity are her problem and it shouldn't impact on those around her. In this instance a firm line should be taken and you either fit in or leave the course. This pandering and acquiescence creates nothing but resentment in others and contributes to breakdown in social cohesion.

Muslim students know that this is not an Islamic country. The onus is on them to fit in with the majority, just like it is for non-muslims to accept the norms of Islamic majority societies.

I wonder how Nige feels about men only golf clubs.

jassy

I've been thinking about the excellent points you made and your plea for practical solutions.

I was also struck by your phrase a big bleeding heart for the tastes of some, and probably a bit culturally imperialist for the tastes of others (ie imposing my Western values of equality on cultures with different values)

I think that's really the issue, cultures with different values.

When I have lived in countries that segregate according to gender, I have had no choice (other than leave which I finally did) but to confirm to both culture and law.

I think it might be as simple as applying the same principle here. Segregation, in the UK, is as we agreed, culturally abhorrent. I need to revisit gender discrimination law for any loopholes here but I'm pretty sure it's also illegal. Feel free to correct me - still on first coffee!

I think it's a shame that Farage has nailed his colours to this mast as that will skew the debate because he is so despised on here, but if we take his involvement out if the equation, I find myself both sad and angry that this is still happening in 2015.

Mistress as ever, you have succinctly said what I waffled over.

'we can't reach this community's women This is a gross generalisation and continues to portray all Muslim women as being oppressed which is far from the truth.

In the photo posted, most of those muslim women have a loose scarf over their heads rather than a proper hijab and some are bare armed. This suggests they've nominally covered because they are in that particular building, which is probably a mosque / Islamic centre and where you have to cover - a bit like when you enter some churches. The seating arrangement reflects the set-up in such institutions.

Thus most if not probably all of those women will be pretty independent and 'free' and no different to you or I.

The unreachable ones will be the ones not allowed to attend a mixed gathering at all, or even a single sex one. Thankfully this is a tiny (but sadly growing) percentage. The best way to help those girls and women would be to start earlier and be like the French by banning faith schools and all special religious exemptions re clothing, not-partaking in sports, extra-curricular activities etc

Buried, I'm not sure. Not an expert in the field. By if it were illegal, how could men only social clubs and golf clubs exist, or women only gyms? Sadly I don't think the laws on gender discrimination have caught up with the laws on racial discrimination.

However to me there is a big issue between imposed segregation (we are holding this event only for men) and chosen/self-selected segregation (if women do not wish to sit with the men, we will have a women's only section).

I agree it's abhorrent to me. I want to see it end, and right across the world.

This is a gross generalisation and continues to portray all Muslim women as being oppressed which is far from the truth

I'm sorry for being imprecise in my language, I certainly didn't intend to refer to all, or even most, Muslim women in my post.

Whether you are referring to all or some is immaterial. It's patronising leftie bollocks that regards muslims, both men and women as requiring special treatment.

The fact is that 'making allowances' has facilitated in some muslim women becoming sidelined and marginalised. So much pandering to male 'community leaders' and overlooking transgressions committed by the muslim community as part of 'being their culture'.

Mia to start with, there is much less accommodation for the women.
Count the seats either side of the red carpet that the women are not allowed to cross.

The fewer seats are probably due to the fact that (i) more men go to these events naturally compared to women (2) the nature of the venue and the gender it attracts- If it was held in an Islamic centre/ mosque, its a building that is mostly frequented by men (wonder if the female politician had to enter through the 'womens side entrance' ?)

I doubt very much they had any sort of quota on how many women could attend and the seating was probably set up to reflect the fact that they knew twice as many men would come.

Next time however there should be an insistence on events being held in neutral venues in view of the disparity.

I also do not understand the endorsement of segregated schools vs the uproar over a segregated Muslim community centre. And segregated golf clubs. Etc. A government minister visited ds's all-boys school. Most of them attended one. Sports are segregated by gender. If those same politicians went to my ds's school tomorrow, and the photo showed all boys and no girls (which it would unless a female staff member was in shot), would there be an uproar?
This is a scare mongering and anti Islamic line of argument from Farage. Muslims segregate by gender in certain settings (they are hardly the only religion to do so.) The UK school system also segregates by gender.

MistressMia So no holding political talks or visits in sex-segregated secondary schools?

Mia, I'm glad you agree that it was mistake to hold the event there.

The expectation may well have been of greater male numbers, but by having the carpet and seating fixed in that way it was enforcing the fact. Women attending the event will have been reminded that they were in a minority and of less importance. And that will have been reinforced by the predominantly male composition of the speakers.

ltk single-sex school examples are not equivalent.

Here the main / only event is being held in a traditionally male space. There is no female equivalent centre where they are also holding an event and where women will be in the majority.

With single sex schools presumably the minister or some other one will also in turn visit the girls schools ?

So no holding political talks or visits in sex-segregated secondary schools?
As you well know, that is not a reasonable comparison.
A direct analogue would be with a mixed sex school when boys and girls were segregated and not given equal space in the school hall.

Yanbu, Farage was right in this case. Islam, as with many religions, is sexist. It's time we stood up to sexism and didn't let it hide behind religion.

Muslims segregate by gender in certain settings (they are hardly the only religion to do so.
Indeed, and the objection by any reasonable person* should apply to any meeting where there is unequal and unfair treatment of the sexes.

*therefore excluding Farage and his cronies.

Whether you are referring to all or some is immaterial. It's patronising leftie bollocks that regards muslims, both men and women as requiring special treatment.

Right, as I sa, I apologise and I'll re-examine my ideas. However, as I've said, I'm coming at this from a perspective of experience in engaging women in communities where men traditionally hold the power, and about how best to reach women those communities, regardless of religion.

The question is so you force change - and risk alienating or reducing participation

You can dismiss it as lefty bollocks if you like. I'm interested in what actually works, not ideological posturing.

Anyone got any evidence of impacts of different kinds of gatherings?

Women attending the event will have been reminded that they were in a minority and of less importance. And that will have been reinforced by the predominantly male composition of the speakers.

Agree mosques / Islamic centres are not particularly inviting to women. One of the oft-heard gripes of Western female muslim converts is the blatant discrimination of such institutions with women being banished to ancillary rooms rather than being allowed in the main praying area and having to use side entrances rather than the main one.

So in view of the blatant disparity, it will be telling to see if future politicians make a stand. Somehow I doubt it, when supposedly up to 25% of seats could be determined by muslim block voting (figures are from a neocon think tank so not sure how accurate this is).

Muslims voters will decide 25% of election seats