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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

886 replies

partialderivative · 30/04/2015 23:01

Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

OP posts:
tomatodizzymum · 05/05/2015 20:02

Dening the concept of any aspect of the unknown based on the inaccuracy of one culturally constructed religion is the same as following one culturally constructed religion and claiming it to be the only truth. Both views cannot seperate the human construction from the factors that influenced that construction. Whatever those factors were, be it unknown forces, now known forces or an evolutionary defect in the brain.

There is evidence of religion in human society for over 20,000 years. There is evidence that religion is humanly constructed. That's the only real evidence anyone has. When people believe in god and are asked to prove god it is like asking someone to prove they have a mind. A mind doesn't actually physically exist, we all have it, so we all believe it. But what if everyone else is a construction of your own mind, can you prove it? The argument for and against god is a philosophical one, not an evidence based one.

Chiggers · 05/05/2015 20:05

Just done a rough count of the murders in the bible and God's killings (direct and indirect) exceeds 2 million deaths. Satan kills just 10 people. So who is the more moral?

Another thing. Noah's ark is a load of waffle. If there were only 8 people left on the earth after the great flood, there wouldn't be as many people today as there is. I came across an article which stated that to repopulate the planet to the amount we have today, in the time between then and now, there would have needed to be at least 25 non-related people left after the flood. That's a bit more that the 8 people in the bible. Besides, there is too much biodiversity in the world for the flood to be true. Not only that, but there is absolutely no geological evidence to support what the bible says on this.

On the same topic, Egyptian were writing/scribing records that started before the flood and continued to be recorded during and after the flood. These records were uninterrupted, so either the global flood didn't happen or this part of the bible is false, OR the Egyptians were totally unaware of a global deluge. I wonder where all that water came from and where it went to???.

Sistermillyrose · 05/05/2015 20:09

JessyRadlet
You don't find the article by Antony Flew interesting?
The most influential philosopher and leading atheist probably ever, who is so astounded by the sheer magnitude of DNA and the implications of a higher power at work that he became a Christian.
The discovery that every cell in the body has a code that is 3 billion letters long, a live reading of which if reading at 3 letters a second would take 31 years to complete, you don't find interesting?
These findings aren't heresay, they are fact.
He, the most notorious atheist of the 20 century said....."Who wrote this script, who placed this working code".
But you Jessyradlet dismiss his findings as inconsequential as you would rather win the argument. Wow.

FreudiansSlipper · 05/05/2015 20:10

The argument for and against god is a philosophical one, not an evidence based one

Yes I believe this to be true

BigDorrit · 05/05/2015 20:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Icimoi · 05/05/2015 20:15

Sistermilly, you complain about your posts being misread, yet you chose to misrepresent mine. I never for one moment suggested that scientists could create flowers, I said that we know the science behind them. And, in fact, we do.

I too am fascinated to know the basis on which you say that God created flowers but Ebola went through the evolution process. So who created the original flu virus and a world in which it is possible for it to evolve into Ebola?

DioneTheDiabolist · 05/05/2015 20:16

When was the flood Chiggers?

JassyRadlett · 05/05/2015 20:16

Indeed, tomato. Which is why I think talking about the 'evidence' for any gods is futile - and will challenge anyone who states that there is evidence for their god in x, y or z and will challenge on that basis.

I have no interest in making people 'prove' their beliefs unless they are presenting those beliefs as fact. Equally, I have no wish or need to be persuaded of my view - I do not believe in any gods, because there is no evidence for any gods.

I do disagree with your characterisation of lack of belief as being 'denial' and equivalent to religion - there is a lot of unknown out there. I deny none of the unknown, I wish to understand it better based on improved evidence-based understanding of the things that are currently not known or not understood.

However maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?

Sistermillyrose · 05/05/2015 20:29

ictimoi My belief is that God created the world. He gave us free will. Somewhere along the line man has fucked up. There are good things and bad things in the world. Everything has evolved. Why not blame the devil for Ebola?

Sistermillyrose · 05/05/2015 20:30

I wonder why you don't find Antony Flews article interesting JessyRadlett

Chiggers · 05/05/2015 20:31

According to my calculations Dione, the flood started approximately 4399 years ago. That's taking in to account the 2015 years after Jesus birth and the 1656 years before that. So nearly 4400yrs ago.

JassyRadlett · 05/05/2015 20:32

Sister - first, do you see that the phrase 'notorious atheist' is perjorative and offensive?

I dismiss none of his evidence based findings - I'm simply satiating that his opinions are his. You object to being misrepresented - you may wish to extend others the same courtesy. I didn't find the article you linked to particularly illuminating - I was not referring to the body of the man's scientific work, and I suspect you knew that.

Would my quoting eminent scientists who say their discoveries has confirmed their atheism prove or disprove the existence of any gods?

I'm assuming you are comfortable with the differences between Flew's deism and your Christianity.

JassyRadlett · 05/05/2015 20:33
  • stating, not satiating. Flipping phone.
Chiggers · 05/05/2015 20:35

Sister, if god already knows what we are going to do, where we are and will be and so on, then we can't have free will, because everything we have done, are doing and will do is pre-determined. This means that free will is an illusion.

We could always surprise god and do something he didn't know we were going to do

JassyRadlett · 05/05/2015 20:38

I wonder why you don't find Antony Flews article interesting JessyRadlett

Well, I wonder why you don't answer any of the questions I've asked you, so I guess we're both used to wondering.

You'll notice I've answered your question - there are many demands on my time and I'm typing on my phone.

I wonder if you'll answer any of mine?

Just out of interest, it's JassyRadlett, not Jessy - a character from some of Nancy Mitford's books. Common error.

Icimoi · 05/05/2015 20:42

Sistermilly, if everything has evolved, on what basis do you claim that God created flowers? And if God is omnipotent, why didn't he stop the Ebola virus from evolving?

JassyRadlett · 05/05/2015 20:44

Why not blame the devil for Ebola?

But by the same logic, why not give the devil credit for flowers? Why are good things evidence of god's existence, but things we perceive as negative have nothing to do with him, in your view?

I think it's tough to blame humans for ebolavirus anyway. There is evidence of filoviruses from tens of millions of years ago; humans have existed for a fraction of that time.

For the record, I think ebolavirus is rather beautiful. Devastating in its effects, but beautiful from a design perspective.

fulltothebrim · 05/05/2015 20:45

Why not blame the devil for Ebola?

Em- because the devil is a religious construct too.

Did your devil create all micro-organisms milly?

fulltothebrim · 05/05/2015 20:47

jassy I agree, viruses are elegant in their simplicity.

Icimoi · 05/05/2015 20:49

I wonder where the religious stand on plants that are beautiful but deadly? After all, if we have the sense not to eat them, we can enjoy their beauty and attribute it to God. But if someone eats it and dies, does that mean that Satan interfered with God's creation? And if so, why did God allow it?

JassyRadlett · 05/05/2015 20:52

Chiggers, there are quite startling similarities between the flood myth in the Gilgamesh stories (Babylonian/Sumerian) and the flood of Noah. Really interesting to compare. Anyway, timing wise, the Gilgamesh flood was supposed to be around 2700 BCE.

tomatodizzymum · 05/05/2015 20:58

Somethings that are not known or understood may never be.

Evidence is overrated, in some cases evidence is only evidence until new or conflicting evidence comes along. In other cases what we think is evidence, turns out not to be. Advancement is about challenging ideas not proving them.

That's why I cannot accept any argument that there isn't a God. Not saying I accept it either. For me though, 20,000 years of religions and several hundred god concepts cannot be denied as delusion. Well it can, but it doesn't seem a very smart option. Not that I think it matters if you do or don't. It's just not something anyone will ever convince me to go.

tomatodizzymum · 05/05/2015 20:59

To do

DioneTheDiabolist · 05/05/2015 21:07

Your calculations Chiggers? Are you an archaeologist or biblical historian?

Chiggers · 05/05/2015 21:07

Icimoi god can't/doesn't stop horrible things from happening because he either can't or won't. In which case why is he called god? If he can't, then he is not worthy of the title.

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