Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

886 replies

partialderivative · 30/04/2015 23:01

Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 23:30

Oh dear, are we back to that one again? Asked and answered. Christianity (and religiosity) are still promoted as the norm under an opt-out system, even if parents did choose to 'other' their children by opting them out (many don't for reasons that have been explained to you repeatedly).

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 23:30

When did I claim the majority are atheist, out of interest?

capsium · 03/05/2015 23:40

I have already said I would be happy with a system whereby everbody makes a choice regarding no/collective worship, with different forms of worship on offer.

I do have difficulty regarding feeling huge sympathy towards atheists not wanting to opt their child out of worship and to get together with like minded parents to opt all their children out of worship. I have stated before I would happily campaign, in support, to ensure opt out is handled fairly.

I have had to personally make a stand and speak out, at length, to ensure my DC received the educational provision he was entitled to by law. I had no qualms in doing so, doing so did not feel like a choice, it felt like a necessity. No matter that my DC potentially could have been 'singled out' and treated differently, due to my actions. I can't really understand the reticence, if a parent feels as passionately, as they claim.

capsium · 03/05/2015 23:44

Majority atheist? It was the general gist of what I understood when you were going on about the census etc, Jassy.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 23:51

Some parents don't feel as passionately - does that mean they and their children aren't as important? Perhaps they weigh things in the balance, and decide they don't want to be 'that parent'. Perhaps they're worried their kid will be bullied or feel otherwise ostracised. Perhaps they don't know the true extent of compulsory worship in non-religious schools. Perhaps they're tired, and object to people of no faith having to jump through extra hoops (having already navigated an admissions system that discriminated against their children). Their feelings are as valid as mine or yours.

However, that's not really the issue. As I've said, my beef is with a law that forces schools to promote Christianity as the norm (and thus endorse it, causing children to see it as truth at an impressionable age), and even in exemptions makes allowance for people of other faiths, but not people of no faith.

It's one of many laws that gives religion, and particularly Christianity, a special status of state promotion and sanction with which I fundamentally disagree. No amount of 'but you could all opt out and then it would be the same as opt in!' is going to persuade me that the law on this and many other issues should change to make the state neutral on issues of religion.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 23:52

No. Have you read the Census (or my posts earlier on it)?

Sorry to be 'going on about' it, though. Damn data, I'm always irritating people with it.

JasperDamerel · 04/05/2015 00:05

I'm religious, but I do think that the "predominantly Christian" nature of worship should be scrapped in favour of a period of collective moral/ethical/spiritual reflection which should be appropriate for the needs of the pupils of that particular school.

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 00:07

I liked what you wrote earlier, Jasper - I can see the point of self reflection and like that it didn't advocate anything particular (including atheism, for the record).

Lazarusbal · 04/05/2015 06:48

I haven't even tried to read the thread so probably anything I post will be ignored or shouted down by people who mock others for their Christian beliefs. By the way I don't believe in a benevolent God.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 07:09

"I haven't even tried to read the thread so probably anything I post will be ignored or shouted down by people who mock others for their Christian beliefs."

Well, you will be delighted to hear that nobody has neem mocked on this thread. Some Christians have defended their privilege in a way that made people of no faith and none feel that their wishes and needs were unimportant, and some people of no faith may have expressed their views in a disobliging manner. But no mockery.

Christians seem particularly concerned about mockery. Sometimes it almost seems as if they are looking for it. St Paul has a lot to answer for, in my opinion.

Lazarusbal · 04/05/2015 07:12

Also, you know we're all going to die right? Whether it be in a massive thing on the other side of the world or next door. All of us. In huge pain,quickly,with masses of others. Who knows.We're all going to do it.

capsium · 04/05/2015 07:20

Some parents don't feel as passionately - does that mean they and their children aren't as important? Perhaps they weigh things in the balance, and decide they don't want to be 'that parent'. Perhaps they're worried their kid will be bullied or feel otherwise ostracised. Perhaps they don't know the true extent of compulsory worship in non-religious schools. Perhaps they're tired, and object to people of no faith having to jump through extra hoops (having already navigated an admissions system that discriminated against their children). Their feelings are as valid as mine or yours.

Their children are no less important, at all. Remember I value collective Christian worship and feel it is beneficial, so from my perspective these children receive something that enriches their lives.

If these parents are less passionate, than you, regarding making schools secular, perhaps it is because they want different things from education than you. That is they might not agree with you Jassy. Are you sure you aren't disregarding their feelings? I have heard a lot of people on here, who describe themselves as agnostic, who enjoy the cultural heritage aspect of the church and want the same for their children. They like the (worship) music, reflection, community, buildings etc.

It is naive to expect a change in law whilst expecting people not to have to make a stand for this change and let their feelings be heard IMO.

Lazarusbal · 04/05/2015 07:22

hakluyt again, I have not read the full thread (rather than the actual vernacular) but I'm quite comfortable assuming that the 18 pages of the thread will all be about how awful Christianity is.

Icimoi · 04/05/2015 07:30

Lazarusbal, why are you comfortable assuming something you have been told is not true?

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 07:31

"hakluyt again, I have not read the full thread (rather than the actual vernacular) but I'm quite comfortable assuming that the 18 pages of the thread will all be about how awful Christianity is."

Fair enough. You can assume that- but you couldn't be more wrong. Do you often comment on threads you know nothing about?

Lazarusbal · 04/05/2015 07:33

Who would ever be an agnostic? Oh maybe. Have the courage of your convictions. If you believe wholeheartedly that you don't believe. I have such respect for you - your belief in nothing. To be an atheist takes a lot. Please respect me as well.

fulltothebrim · 04/05/2015 07:35

I value collective Christian worship and feel it is beneficial,

Even for non- christians?

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 07:39

That's the trouble with making assumptions with no evidence, Lazarus. It can make you look a little bit silly.

Caps, as ever, I'm very comfortable with the idea that many people think differently from me - and I expounded earlier about the prevalence of cultural Christianity among those who don't believe in the Christian god (you may have missed it, it was when I was 'going on' about the Census again).

However, as I've said numerous times, I don't think the state should take sides. Given the second largest group in the Census was of people who say they have no religion, the state should reconsider its choice to elevate all religions above none in the services we've discussed, and I think the state should remain neutral on issues of religion.

Many people agree - lots of polls, lots of campaigns. Many disagree, which is fine. But I think it's importent to acknowledge that people's reasons for not campaigning on any issue, particularly when it pertains to their children, can be complex, and that lack of activism does not automatically equal endorsement for and support for the status quo.

As ever, I know you think it's beneficial, you know I think it's damaging. We will never, ever agree - and there are many more on both sides if this. On such a polarising issue, I'd prefer our schools to be a neutral space, and leave us to make our own decisions for our children on issues that have no evidence base.

fulltothebrim · 04/05/2015 07:39

Lazarusbal- atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of faith, not another type of religion. How can I believe in nothing?

capsium · 04/05/2015 07:42

Yes, if they don't object, full. And it is up to a parent to object for a small child in our society. When the teachers reported my DC did not 'cope', at one point, with assembly, due to SEN, I let my DC be excluded from assemblies. My DC subsequently started joining the whole school assemblies later on in their school career.

Lazarusbal · 04/05/2015 07:43

hakluyt this thread at the moment has 18 pages. I only had to go back 2.

fulltothebrim · 04/05/2015 07:45

How rude capsium- and extremely arrogant of you.

capsium · 04/05/2015 07:47

But I think it's importent to acknowledge that people's reasons for not campaigning on any issue, particularly when it pertains to their children, can be complex, and that lack of activism does not automatically equal endorsement for and support for the status quo.

It does not equal a lack of endorsement and support for the status quo either. Strictly speaking, what a lack of activism indicates is unknown.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 07:48

I swore I would never engage with Capsium on collective worship again- but that is outrageous even for you!

Lazarusbal · 04/05/2015 07:48

Fullothebrim - you have a complete belief, no? Yes, it's in nothing - but you're completely sure you're right?