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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

886 replies

partialderivative · 30/04/2015 23:01

Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

OP posts:
capsium · 03/05/2015 16:13

BigDorrit

I also posted this:

^Add message | Report | Message poster capsium Tue 22-Jul-14 17:21:21
OneEgg^

The suggestions as to how opting out could be better handled leave every school having to reinvent the wheel, and some will do it better than others.

In one way believe every school should reinvent the wheel so to speak. School communities are organic, ever changing. I believe education should change to cater for their changing needs, it should be responsive.

However I also value collective worship and I feel that schools should beheld legally accountable for providing this - otherwise it is squeezed out, as everything else is that they are not legally obliged to provide.

The way for opting in or out not to be discriminatory is for everyone to choose for their child, with no stigma attached and appropriate provision be made. This would allow the choice to be made much more freely and schools would have to get used to making provision for a more diverse range of needs.

So, whilst I personally think opt out can be handled in such a way that is fair, so that the children opted out are not missing anything other than collective worship and are not stigmatised, I did point out a fairer way than opting in or out, whilst still retaining collective worship provision in schools.

BigDorrit · 03/05/2015 16:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

capsium · 03/05/2015 16:33

It's what I believe BigD. I do value collective worship, so much I like there to be room for it within any institution. So I will say so.

You don't, I know, but that does not make me value it any less.

I also like my children to learn about myths, legends and folk tales - they are part of our culture and tell us something about ourselves. It'd be a dry old world without them IMO.

DioneTheDiabolist · 03/05/2015 16:35

Big, for someone who repeatedly criticizes the bible and Christians, your lack of knowledge of both is remarkable, embarrassing and a bit rude.

Oh, and I'm not a Christian.

BigDorrit · 03/05/2015 16:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 16:46

I also like my children to learn about myths, legends and folk tales - they are part of our culture and tell us something about ourselves. It'd be a dry old world without them IMO.

Oh, so would I. As long as they aren't taught as fact, either in the classroom or 'endorsed' as fact through school sponsored collective worship.

That's the biggest problem with collective worship for me. It says to children 'this is fact' when it really isn't.

My second problem is that it wastes precious and scarce teaching time, conveying as fact something that the majority think is not fact.

My third problem is that by endorsing Christian worship as the norm, any children who participate are automatically outwith that norm, and 'othered'.

capsium · 03/05/2015 16:47

Christianity involves faith BigD and I believe it should be presented as such. To my recollection, I have never said otherwise. My DC knows that and attends a C of E school - knows that belief is involved within Christianity and not everyone believes in the Christian God. No problem regarding faith being presented as fact there.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 16:48
  • who do not participate, clearly.
Hakluyt · 03/05/2015 16:49

"like thinking that Christians believe that god wrote the bible and that Christians do not think it is very relevant.shock"

Well some Christians certainly believe that the bible was divinely inspired.

Some Chrisitians believe that every word of it is fact. And some certainly seem to believe that it's not very relevant, based on their responses to questions about some of the more challenging passages!

Sazzle41 · 03/05/2015 16:51

Someone famous said it best: "Religion is the opium of the masses". Its a crutch/coping strategy is all. And if it works for you, then fine. My BFF needs to believe her Dad "is in heaven taking afternon tea with my Grandma". If thats a comfort to her I think its all good and nice that it does help her cope. Its the God has a reason for the shit stuff i struggle with. What reason?

But i have to say having had "Christian" with a capital C neighbours, they were some of the oddest, unhappiest and deliberately nasty people i have ever met so i struggled to see what their religion gave them.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 16:53

How on earth do they conduct the collective worship, then, in a way that does not suggest the school believes in it/shares the faith?

'Now children, let us pray. Dear God, whom most people think doesn't exist, but some people believe in. Thank you for the x, y and z, which most people think you had nothing to do with, but some have faith that you did. Watch over us as we learn, if you exist and have the ability to do so. In Jesus' (who may or may not have existed in the Biblical conception of him) name, Amen.

There is no sensible way to conduct collective worship that does not include endorsement of the faith.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 16:58

^Well some Christians certainly believe that the bible was divinely inspired.
Some Chrisitians believe that every word of it is fact. And some certainly seem to believe that it's not very relevant, based on their responses to questions about some of the more challenging passages!^

And raises the issue of which bits we're supposed to listen to/not supposed to listen to (relevant to the way this thread started and discussion of who gets into heaven and who doesn't, and the inherent problems of the NT construct of who gets to heaven when taken on a global/historical scale).

Even when you leave aside that there isn't a consistent Bible.

JasperDamerel · 03/05/2015 17:13

How about "Now children, let us sit in silence for a few minutes to think about the things we are grateful for today. Those of you who follow a religion might like to say a silent prayer of thanks. Some of you might like to think about who you would like to say thank you to today for one of those things. And maybe we could all think of one thing we could do today, big or small, that would make the day better for someone else".

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 17:15

Jasper, that seems immensely more sensible than mandatory act of worship of a Christian character.

DioneTheDiabolist · 03/05/2015 17:19

There's a huge difference between inspired by and written by.

JasperDamerel · 03/05/2015 17:21

For many schools, that counts as collective worship of a broadly Christian character.

capsium · 03/05/2015 17:23

Jassy that would constitute Christian worship within a school. The worship just has to be 'broadly' Christian in character.

fatlazymummy · 03/05/2015 17:23

There is no justification whatsoever for compulsory or mandatory worship within state schools. If you want to pray then do it on your own time, not time that is suposed to be spent educating other people's children.
Which prime minister was responsible for this? Thatcher or B.liar?

capsium · 03/05/2015 17:24

X post.

Hakluyt · 03/05/2015 17:30

"Jassy that would constitute Christian worship within a school. The worship just has to be 'broadly' Christian in character."

No it wouldn't. Some schools use such wording, but it would not pass then "broadly Christian" criterion.

Thatcher- it was in the 1988 Education Act.

capsium · 03/05/2015 17:33

What makes you say that Hak? (Re. not being 'broadly Christian)

capsium · 03/05/2015 17:47

This link gives details of what provision needs to be made:

www.churchofengland.org/media/1244326/qs and as re collective worship.pdf

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 17:50

Jassy that would constitute Christian worship within a school. The worship just has to be 'broadly' Christian in character.

How could it be broadly Christian of the worship never mentions the Christian God, Jesus or the bible?

The guidance states:

'A “broadly Christian” act of worship must contain some elements which relate to the traditions of Christian belief and which accord a special status to Jesus Christ. (Circular 1/94, paragraph 63). Only on special occasions can the act of worship take place somewhere other than on the school premises, subject to the agreement of the head.'

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 17:52

Caps, that's a dead link.

JassyRadlett · 03/05/2015 17:53

That quote is for community schools, by the way, and the circular quoted is from DfE.

So if some schools aren't following the guidance -great, but that's not how the system is set up or the privileged position the state intends to afford Christianity in worship,