...to expect courtesy from recruitment consultants?

[Caplanepourmoi]

(With apologies to any nice recruitment consultants reading this)

I'm a regular but I've name changed.

I'm looking for a job at the moment (just finished a fixed term contract). I'm a chartered accountant. I have 18 years' experience in a number of senior finance roles and I trained with a top firm.

I am having a sodding nightmare trying to find a job.

In my field, the roles are almost all handled by recruitment consultants. I've been intermittently looking for the past couple of years but I've stepped up my game a bit now that I'm not working.

I'm in the north of England, close to two of the biggest cities, and I've indicated that I'll accept up to £25k less than I was earning previously on the grounds that one sometimes has to speculate to accumulate.

If you are a recruitment consultant, or if you've dealt with them, can you rationalise this behaviour (listed below) please?

• I see a role advertised on a website. I call the recruitment consultant. Somebody takes a message, but I don't get a call back. I call again several days later, still no response. It's so rude.

• I see a role advertised, I send in my CV, I have to 'sell myself' over the phone to somebody who knows very little about finance and explain why I'd be the right fit for the role and I hear absolutely nothing.

• I see a role advertised, speak to somebody about it, and they tell me that it's already at interview stage and the client is seeing people that day, even though the closing date is at least a week off. This often happens a week or more after I first call the recruitment consultant and leave a message...why bother calling me back after a week to tell me that other people are already being interviewed but they'll send my cv in, and why bother with closing dates if the recruitment apparently works on a 'first come, first served' basis, which seems insane for senior finance jobs?

• I see a role advertised, talk to a recruitment consultant about it, and he or she promises to call me back before the end of the week to tell me whether they plan to submit my cv, after spending up to half an hour talking through my cv with me. They never call back. The last time this happened, I left it until the middle of the following week then swallowed my pride and called, only to find that the recruitment consultant had gone on holiday. I left a message, but I never heard back.

Yes, I know that recruitment consultants are sales people. Yes, as know that they work for the end client, not the candidates. However, is a little courtesy too much to ask?

Every time this happens to me I feel a little more disillusioned: nobody likes to be treated with contempt, or as if they aren't even worth a returned call or e-mail.

Any insights please?

Thanks everybody. So reassuring to know that it's not just me.

BTW I was shocked by the statement in an (otherwise helpful) post from a recruitment consultant poster who said that they don't bother with things that won't make them any money, like, er, being polite or compassionate. God help us if this is how the majority operate!

I'd love to know how our careers ended up being placed in the hands of people like this.

My pet hate when I was jobseeking a few years ago:
One agency - keen to send me for job interviews which I went on all of, as I was desperate for a job. But would never get the job, and consultant never bloody gave me any feedback or told me why ! I had to press and press in the end - turned out last interview I had dared to discuss a higher role in company with one of the interviewers and that was frowned on. I left that agency.
Second agency - Had interview with consultant. Got a ph call next day. "Kiwi I am NOT putting you forward for that role, we need someone with more experience." That actually happened a couple of times. Um, did you not READ my CV? where it clearly states my skills and experience??? Please don't waste my time just to make up your numbers !! (No I didn't say that but was very pi$$ed off).

You're not alone. I had a job I hated so joined an agency to find another.
Without fail they would ring every Friday asking if I could do a week miles away starting on Monday. For three months I had to tell the same idiot that I had a permanent job, I didn't want temporary. I certainly didn't want temporary at half my salary. They never got back to me about jobs I could do on their website, even when I left three messages in one day. They only ever rang me with pot washing, catalogue distribution or deliveries. I was an administrator!

After three months they rang to say I had to accept something at some point and I told them to tear up my details as they were useless.

I'm in a similar industry. My advice would be to ask around to find the names of the decent consultants, then sell yourself to them (meet face to face). Once they know they can place you and get a commission, they'll be actively working for you. Otherwise they'll treat you like shit.

There's good and bad in every industry. I've worked with some great consultants who have built a relationship with me, proactively tried to create opportunities for me with their clients, then followed up during the placement to make sure it's going well.

I've also worked with terrible consultants, including one who only had to extend my contract in the job I was already doing with a client who was keen to keep me on and still managed to fuck it up.

Unfortunately, sometimes the jobs I want are being advertised with the consultants I would prefer not to deal with, so I have to suck it up, be politely pushy and sell myself and try and persuade the consultant to put me in front of the actual recruiter. It's annoying but it's just what you have to do.

One thing that struck me from your post is that you're willing to take a £25k paycut. That's quite unusual and might be off putting. One thing recruitment consultants are wary of is placing candidates who will bugger off at the first sniff of a better job. This could explain their reluctance to place you in roles you are qualified (or perhaps overqualified) for.

In my experience, recruitment consultants are in the same sewer as estate agents ...

When we first started househunting, our requirements were very simple, because of MrsLHs MS:

1. Ground floor flat or a bunglalow
2. with a garden or access to a garden (for DS)

We almost gave up, after a 3rd estate agent phoned us up with a first or second floor flat with no garden.

Similarly, I work in IT and would be looking for:

1. a permanent role
2. West Midlands
3. VB/VC++

and lost count of the number of calls I got excitedly telling me about a contract position in Edinburgh for a Java developer.

Seems a recent "thing" is to spaff out emails, and then ignore the replies. I had a very fraught conversation recently with a "consultant". I had received a spammy email, but the role looked interesting. So, as advised, I replied with a current cv.

Heard nothing.

Then about 6 weeks later, the same consultant spammed me again. This time I called them, and asked why they hadn't responded to my first email.

"Oh I'm terribly sorry, I was off ill."
"So any candidate you were dealing with was out of luck ?"
"Er ... no ... um"
"How about any companies you were dealing with ? Did they get ignored ?"
"Er, no, we all handle each others ...." (trails off as she realises what she's saying. I finish her sentence)
"So, candidates get ignored, but companies ...."
"er, I don't think this conversation is very productive"
"I would say that, it's produced some cracking lies. .... hello, hello ?"

Thanks. I'm just about managing to suck it up when I have to call somebody I know to be awful, but it's a challenge!

One of the consultants at one of the biggest agencies is beyond rude. I called him a couple of years ago about a role and asked him to look at my cv (which was on file at that agency already).

Him: "they won't be interested in YOU"

Me: "why not? I've got everything they are asking for."

Him: "Send your updated cv in if you want, but it will go into the bin"

However, I can't tell him where to stick it because I'd be cutting off my nose to spite my face!

What I find weird is, when I've been recruiting people for my team in the past, the recruitment consultants are all over me, bombarding me with smarm. I'm surprised that they haven't put two and two together and thought, "perhaps if we're polite to these people, they might use us in the future when they are recruiting". Apparently not.

There are a small number of decent people about, though. Just not enough of them!

...and I agree, they never seem to read the cv. You send it in, then if/when you actually get to talk to them, they say, "tell me what you've been doing". Hello! Remember that document I sent you??

This whole business of advertising nonexistent posts in order to harvest cvs is so unethical but apparently it is common place. I wish it could be outlawed. Surely gaining your personal details under false pretences breaches data protection law in some way ?

Has anyone mentioned cv blocking yet? Where recruiters advertise a job that they don't actually have, get your cv, allegedly submit it to the client and prevent you from applying to the genuine agent. Sometimes they do have the job but can only submit 2 cvs, so get yours to prevent you from applying via another agent and give their candidates a better chance.

I agree with the PP who said that being willing to take a £25k pay cut looks fishy. I'd pitch it at your current salary and let them beat you down or try to avoid mentioning current salary. Or maybe you are applying for jobs that are too junior for your cv? Don't put your age, or age identifying dates, on your cv either(I'm sure you don't)

Just send off your cv, follow up immediately with a phone call and then forget about it. If they actually have a job (a big if sometimes) and you are suitable they'll be straight on the phone to get their commission.

I know it's a bleak picture but there are decent, professional recruiters out there and I agree with PP that said it tends to be the smaller outfits because they don't hire barrow boys/failed estate agents

and I agree, they never seem to read the cv. You send it in, then if/when you actually get to talk to them, they say, "tell me what you've been doing". Hello! Remember that document I sent you??

I forgot this one. Depending on the subscription they have for the job site, they may have to pay a fee to download your cv. So they may not actually have it and will ask you to 'send it again'.

The reason for the potential pay cut (and I know, it could look odd but I'm trying not to price myself out of the market) is that I'm trying to escape from the public sector. I was in the private sector for ages, then fell into public sector after being offered a role there by a recruitment consultant. That was six years ago and I've been trying to escape, intermittently, for the last three.

The skills are exactly the same - a chartered accountant is a chartered accountant - but the recruitment consultants have told me that public sector is cv poison.

The state of the economy hasn't helped, I think...in the north, people in senior roles just aren't moving much and the recruiting companies seem to be very picky about candidates having worked in that exact sector. That seems to be more important (according to the recruitment consultants, anyway) than intelligence or the ability to make things happen. It's irritating because I know that I'm really good.

So I thought that I needed to be more flexible on salary in order to maximise my chances. It's good advice about letting them beat me down, though. Thanks.

They are probably worried about you having absorbed the public sector culture - generally perceived to be mañana on deadlines, jobsworth, duvet days and vast pensions
Do you have a summary section at the top of your cv? If so, you could prominently feature any well-known private sector companies you've worked for. It might catch the eye before they read about e.g. Smallshire County Council.

Best of luck with it anyway. If you keep plugging away you'll find something.

My friend's daughter left University with a degree in archaeology and some weekend work experience in a clothes shop. She was taken on immediately by a recruitment agency and charged with selecting suitable candidates for jobs in high finance positions.
It makes me wonder about some of these agencies.

I'm not sure about letting them beat you down on salary - I work in the same industry, and my cv / the cvs I receive don't have current salary information on them - the recruiter just advises salary expectations. And if we've got a role advertised that is up to 80k, and we get a CV from someone asking for 100k, we'd probably disregard it rather than interview and then negotiate them down.

However, if the recruitment consultant is telling clients that you're prepared to take a 25k pay cut, that could cause problems.

When I was a student I had a great local recruitment consultant.

I would call her the week before summer /Easter break and tell her I was free for x amount of weeks. She would always find me something, I started off packing boxes in factories and ended up at the PCT in the Finance offices. Good money too.

Other than her, no luck whatsoever, they seem a total waste of time.

Thanks for the hints.

I don't put salary expectations on my cv. I just tell the recruitment consultants what I was earning, and my bottom line.

I will keep on plugging away, and try not to take it personally...

Hello

DH is pretty senior in a large accountancy firm...a couple of weeks ago we were having a conversation about recruitment generally and I asked him if many people applied to the firm directly or went through recruitment consultancies. He said people overwhelming came via consultancies so I asked if it would be a disadvantage for someone applied directly.

His response was that it would be the very opposite- it would be a huge advantage. Because the fee the consultants charge is massive, so anyone who came without that extra cost attached would (other things, like qualifications and experience, being in the same ballpark) really, really stand out.

So why not approach firms you want to work for directly?

Spoke to him just now about your particular situation (public sector etc) and he said:

1. Yes public sector is viewed a bit dimly
2. But you have a lot of private sector experience too, so that would be taken into account
3. You could have a massive advantage if you apply directly to firms, without even offering to take a paycut, simply because there will be no fee of e.g. one years salary.
4. Just be sure to make it clear what kind of role you are looking for when you approach a firm, and find the right internal person to contact directly, so you are not just seen as generally trawling
5. That kind of proactiveness will also help you get past the perception of public sector-ness

And I would say maybe don't offer to take a paycut- you're devaluing yourself and that might not make you look too shiny in a good firm's eyes. Sure, don't negotiate up to hard but show you have confidence in your own value. Save them on a fee and show your gumption by applying direct.

Also, it occurs to me that if you are prepared to take a big paycut, you are actually making yourself less attractive to the consultant- the fee and therefore their commission is based on the salary of the successful candidate. so if you are prepared to take an e.g. 25% cut to your baseline to get over the public sector stint, you are actually saying to them that they will get a smaller fee and commission. And they are usually on commission or earning based bonus. So if they have a few candidates for a role, you are actually the least attractive one to them, if you're looking for a lowish salary compared to the others.

Anyway hope that helps and good luck.

I would say there is a huge bandwidth in recruitment - there are some really useless firms/individuals, but equally some really brilliant ones.

I have one recruiter who I've worked with to get my last two roles and he really does go beyond expectations, gave me amazing feedback on my CV and interview skills, etc., kept chasing the company to get my formal offer and negotiated brilliantly to get me an extra 10% on what they'd set the salary at.

My role is quite specialist (small sub-niche of call centre industry) and "my" fella works for a specialist firm. I think you will have generally have better luck with these rather than people who are generalists.

Networking is always a help too. Do you keep in touch with former colleagues/bosses? Ask them which agencies they use, or better yet get them to introduce you. I've done that for several of my previous colleagues.

And yes definitely ask around as well, speak to any former colleagues who are now working in firms you'd like to join, ask them to let you know of any roles. Also ask people to endorse you on Linked In. I get quite a few cold enquiries from recruiters via that site.

Also have someone in the know check over your CV and critique it. If it's black and white, Arial or Times New Roman font and your job experience is a bullet-pointed list of KPIs, you need to refresh it!

I used to work for a recruitment agency as in house counsel. I saw some poor behaviour as well as some really good consultants. Check whether your agencies are registered with the REC which is the industry body.

When I left that job (constructive dismissal!) I saw quite a few recruiters, and used them for info and advice. I was put forward for some reasonable jobs, but ultimately the 2 jobs that proceeded the furthest were different. A recruiter found my CV on Totally Legal and was great. But the job I ultimately took I got through contacts.

I work now for a US company doing a slightly niche job. It wouldn't suit everyone, but most of the time I like it. I had been telling a contact (a lawyer who had done some work for us, who as a partner at a London firm) that I needed to move on as my boss was difficult. In the meantime my now boss who was a client of his, had been telling him how awful recruiters were....it worked out for me.

I would network as actively as you can.

Good luck!

Brilliant advice. Thanks ladies.

Try executive search companies who specialise in CA. High street recruiters are the worst.

IIWY I'd

• Trawl linkedin and update your profile on there

• Approach some agents in your area and register with them. My experience is that I get called by agencies because I'm registered (and known to them) so if something comes up in my field they think of me.

• work on relationships with those consultants you like / are involved with companies you want to work for

• agree about summary, downplaying public sector

• agree about approaching companies direct

Every job I've had in the past 15 years has been through an agent and none of those jobs were advertised, the organisations purely went through agencies. So they're a necessary evil Imo

Good luck!

Recruitment consultants actively go out and look for roles to recruit for. Often this means looking in the papers or online for jobs which have been advertised and calling them to ask if they can send in CVs. The company recruiting may say yes, but if they get enough decent responses from their own adverts they probably won't even bother looking at the CVs the recruitment company sent because they can recruit without paying them an extortionate fee.

It's illegal to advertise old or non-existent jobs but they will leave something that's expired on a job board until the website takes it down in order to harvest CVs. And you do have to be persistent calling them because they both ring out and receive hundreds, if not thousands of calls to candidates a week. Put it this way, I have been called twice by the same recruitment company this afternoon because she forgot she spoke to me and set up a meeting on Tuesday thirty minutes before.

Recruitment is basically a hard sales business where the consultants work on commission. I have worked in it, I would never return. I found the majority of consultants were thorough avaricious and immoral. I have watched a recruitment consultant reduce a recent graduate to tears trying to bully him into accepting a short term temp job (which would have made the consultant a lot of money) rather than a perm job he had found outside the business.

I watched them lie about the expected length of contracts, even the departments people were supposed to be in, overlook obviously faked qualifications and visas and much, much more. Anything to make money.

Just remember that you are not their customer, the client is to some extent but ultimately their focus is on earning a commission, not providing a service to anybody. Don't expect customer service as a candidate because as far as they are concerned if anything you're the one offering a service to them and therefore they are the customer.

Arrange to meet them so remember you, also call at 9am in the morning before they have team briefings you be foremost in mind for anything comes up in the meeting. Some agencies are better than others, would also recommend contacting local offices rather than national ones.