is this sexist or am I over thinking things?

[WidowWadman]

My husband and I are buying our first home. I'm earning a bit more than him, the deposit is coming out of my inheritance, I've been doing all correspondance with our conveyancer (including the initial instruction), so why am I named second on all paperwork? It doesn't make a difference on a practical level as we're joined tenants anyway, but somehow it really pisses me off, that he's "buyer1" and I'm "buyer2" on everything. Can't be even based on alphabetical name order so I wonder if it's based on sex?

AIBU to be annoyed?

Not everything is a feminist battle drowsy.

YANBU! When we applied for a mortgage with the Woolwich 17 years ago, the forms were actually set up so that Applicant One's details went on BLUE pages and Applicant Two's were on PINK pages. I couldn't believe my eyes. DH and I made them fill in the forms with me down as Applicant One, and my name has been the first on statements ever since.

londonrach, op is the highest earner.

Same here, when I complained to utilities, they blamed their system, said they would override it, haven't done a blessed thing. Makes me fume.

Also a friend is Dr, her husband is Mr - everything comes to Mr & Mrs, makes her swear!

But it's not unintentional. (Although of course yes, unintentional sexism matters and needs to be challenged.)

Someone - various people - set up these systems to that that male would be Buyer 1 by default, regardless of whose name was entered first on the paperwork, regardless of who was the higher earner/paying the deposit. All these systems, so many of them! That is intentional. Perhaps an unconscious decision based on habit, but still a decision - at some point someone actively set up these systems to override any other order in favour of male first, female second.

It takes thought to do that.

So it's not unintentional.

And it does matter. The idea that the man naturally, automatically is predominant over the woman is at the very heart of sexism and gender inequality. Challenging this idea is just as important as challenging any of the more abhorrent practices that result from that basic idea.

And the stories about women actually missing out on windfalls and so on because of this -

and how could I forget

YANBU....in any way.....I have a wife and it can use us no amount of both irritation and amusement about the difficulties banks, utilities etc have about trying to work out who to name first.....but everyone being gay is probably not a practical solution...

YANBU.

I am named first on our mortgage because I bought the house and DH was added later. I would have ripped them a new one if I had ended up second.

As a side note, I've had more that a couple of women complain to me over the years that they were put down as client 1 and not their husband. A few men complain about the same thing. You can't win, someone has to be client one.

You can win: you ask! Or you go with the paperwork as given to you. As conveyancer, that may mean you perpetuate someone else's error, which is hard on you. But the creators of the paperwork you end up with should have gone with the information provided by the applicants, or asked. (And most definately should not be using pink and blue coded forms as was described above!)

When we moved house, dp's brother helped us which was really kind of him. BUT every time he saw me pick something up I heard, 'Be careful hobnong/ that one's really heavy/ careful how you put those down/ here you take this one instead (handing me a really light item).'

Yes he did us a massive favour but he treated me as if I was a child and I couldn't say anything because he'd gone out of his way to help us. I wasn't lifting things I couldnt manage btw and I'm stronger than I look.

Sorry I know that's off topic but it was sexism and it annoyed me.

I would've gone to the pub and left him to it, hobnong.

Momagain, my firm does add people on the system as they've completed the forms. So if the woman is down as client one she is named first. We STILL get people complaining, although it's not that common I don't have time to have a long discussion with every client about who wants to be named first when makes no difference. I normally have plenty of other serious and important issues to discuss with them. Things that do matter.

I imagine, the reason that a lot of systems will be set up to put the man first will be to allow for letters to be generated that are addressed to Mr & Mrs Smith. That is proper letter writing etiquette, apparently. If you want to fight this battle then you need to start there and while you're at it get rid of Miss, Mrs etc she you're at it.

Hobnong, I just see that as someone trying to be nice.

It happened to me too, in similar circumstances.

I cancelled our mortgage application (explaining why) and went with another firm who weren't sexist.

teddybears the first one or two times was nice. Continuously throughout what was a very long day of moving things, after he'd seen I was capable of lifting fairly heavy items, was just irritating. Add to that the fact that he was not 'nice' to my male dp or my brother, only to me. It is sexism. Perhaps well intended, but sexism nonetheless.

this happened to me with house insurance. the house was in my name i took out the policy and paid for it but all the letters came addressed to dp. it really pissed me off, i never renewed the policy with them but i did tell them its the 21st century not that it made the slightest bit of difference

I've complained to utilities too, they say they'll change it, then the system/somebody overrides it again.

In my case it's not a letter writing etiquette issue. My title is Dr. And for those of you saying it doesn't matter, it does. If it makes someone feel invisible, insignificant, demeaned, etc, then it matters.

I also found it particularly offensive that somebody decided to switch my title away from me and to my partner because they assumed that, based on gender, it must be his. That does matter. And so do all the other examples described here.

teddybears I would have thought that someone working for a solicitor is clever enough to change default values on a mail merge.

I don't have time to have a long discussion with every client about who wants to be named first when makes no difference. I normally have plenty of other serious and important issues to discuss with them. Things that do matter.

You wouldn't with me, as soon as you put me second you would no longer be doing business with me. It does matter, it is important.

Teddy I work in professional services too and it's a slippery slope once you start dictating to your client what is and isn't important to them. Ultimately you are still in a service industry and need to respect your clients.

I am reminded of the Ab Fab episode where someone in a prestigious art gallery was snooty to Edina - 'you only work in a shop you know, you can drop the attitude'

The council tax, mortgage and house insurance all have me named first. They are sent out to Mrs and Mr rainbowdash. I think it is because I owned my own place, and sold it and let dh come on the property for this one, or probably because dh didn't speak at all when we met the solicitor as he doesn't know the answer to anything!

I recall our mortgage adviser advising to put the higher earner first (which is MrNC) because you don't want the person reading the form to have to use more effort than necessary to confirm we have enough money, and having to read as far as person 2 might be enough to get rejected! Generally I fill in forms so am person 1 but if it then turns out that person 1 needs to be, say, the registered keeper of the car I'm insuring, I then need to do it again. Or buy a car, I suppose.

Same adviser previously got us life insurance apologising that the best deal was with a firm who hadn't updated forms recently - which meant the insurance came through with a copy of the forms he'd completed for us. and all the questions on your sexual history had 'none of your business' scrawled across them. :)

Utilities - I can't even get Thames Water to spell my name correctly, let alone add anyone else to the account. BT would never allow anyone else to be added to an account - how have others managed it?!

One advantage of ds's inner city diverse school is that forms have contact sections that say "parent or carer 1,2,3,4". So we can all get woken by texts...

I imagine, the reason that a lot of systems will be set up to put the man first will be to allow for letters to be generated that are addressed to Mr & Mrs Smith. That is proper letter writing etiquette, apparently. If you want to fight this battle then you need to start there and while you're at it get rid of Miss, Mrs etc she you're at it.

If enough of us raise our voices about this, maybe more companies will alter their systems then. After all, it is hardly rare for two people to buy a house together where they are not Mr and Mrs X - they may be a same sex couple, or sisters, or friends, or a Ms... I'm really fed up of having to explain myself and my life to have to fit in with some form. The latest time being earlier this year, when I had to engage in lengthy explanations about the legalities of same sex parenting and adoption, in front of my dd, just before her surgery. Being repeatedly challenged about who your child's 'real' mother is, in front of that child, when she is already scared and unsettled, is far from ideal. I'm buggered if I agree that the sanctity of 'how the form was set up' is more important than that.