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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think so many things are done in education because of tradition and not because they have an educational purpose.

109 replies

OrlandoWoolf · 29/04/2015 22:24

Ok

2 things really. But I am sure people can think of more.

Spelling tests - if you're a good speller, you'll probably not need to practise much and you'll probably get most of them right.

Do spelling tests improve your spellings? Why do people who need to learn them get them right in the test but get them wrong in their normal writing?

Homework - does it help you learn? Remember stuff. Help you improve. Or is it done because that's the way it's always been so people expect it?

I don't think there's any evidence to support the educational effectiveness of spelling tests or homework. Good teaching and identification of reading / spelling issues helps you learn to spell.

But we like tradition, not evidence, don't we Confused

OP posts:
cingolimama · 30/04/2015 10:03

Mamma, Not all parents do crafty stuff with their kids. Personally, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes.

Shortandsweet20 · 30/04/2015 10:04

As a trainee teacher they are both important! Spelling is a big thing especially for sats (I know they aren't 'real' anymore but they go towards the set they will be in at secondary!) so the SPaG test is a big part of that, so if from an early age they get used to doing a bit of work to remember to spell things correctly it will help them as they grow up. It also helps their memory which they will use a lot more as time goes on and they go to secondary!

It also hopefully gets parents involved! In my year 2 class i did my reading on Monday morning with 5 students, one hadnt read at home for well over a month!!! Compared to children who do it daily or weekly, he is very behind! Children need to do little bits at home because it highlights what they can actually do! It's very easy to sit in class and copy the child next to you so it's easy but at home they don't have this option! I don't give much homework but they do have some and spellings just so they learn and get into the mindset they need as they go up the key stages :)

HeinousPieTrap · 30/04/2015 10:04

agree HW should be kept until secondary - and then introduced gradually with clear instructions on how much time should be spent on it.

Spelling tests for the very young seem a bit unnecessary, but I think by the time they're in upper junior it's good to point out those words which are often misspelled. That can be done as a test, but concentrating more on the exercise than the score (that can probably be said for all tests, I guess!). I still remember words like secretary, definitely, beautiful, weird etc on a typewritten sheet I was given at that age, in the spirit of "these words are tricky, but it looks so much better if you can get them right". Which I think it does (so shoot me Wink)

I hate hate hate those craft projects that come home. I'd definitely abolish them (stealth parental competitiveness, hard on children who have less at home, who don't have parents who want to help, who don't have time, who have parents who think it's a waste of time and a pile of shite (that's me then))...

Sparklingbrook · 30/04/2015 10:05

At least with twins it will be all over in one big chunk.

When you have two just 3 years apart and you have had spellings and presentations and projects for years and years it starts to get to you. I couldn't imagine doing a third or a fourth.

I did crafts when mine were little. but not building a 3D model of the solar system or whatever the school require, just free 'make what you like'. The stuff the school wanted made could not be made from random bits in the craft box.

Presentation skills-not sure. Neither DS has had to do one at secondary yet. DS1 hates standing in front of people and DS2 hasn't got a problem.

Coffee1234 · 30/04/2015 10:11

Mamma - i don't think children should have presentation homework until they're old enough to do the research themselves, or at least direct it.

Sparklingbrook · 30/04/2015 10:18

TBF if DSs (13&15) had presentation as Homework now it would be so much better, I wouldn't even know except to maybe see the end result as practice.
Year 3, asking a 7/8 year old to talk for 15 minutes about Madrid? Stressful to say the least. The more capable the teacher thought the child was the longer the presentation had to be. Sad

nagynolonger · 30/04/2015 10:20

I always enjoyed the craft stuff but even that got too much as they got older. It really shouldn't involved trips to B & Q for wood that DH had to make into a frame for a Tudor house. That should have been done with donated cornflake boxes at school.

Momagain1 · 30/04/2015 10:21

Learning is not about the teacher pouring information into open brains. For information to actually stick, the learner has to put forth the effort to look at the information themselves by reading up in advance of lectures, taking notes, and rereading and organising their notes after. It would be lovely if learning was as easy was as simple as children hearing a teacher say something once or twice, but it isnt.

Spelling lists are the minimum homework from a young age, so they are the first opportunity for parents to teach their children HOW to study independently. To do a bit every day, and employ different strategies. For examining the information.

Agreed, those who quickly pick up on the varied and contradictory rules and anti-rules of spelling in their native language do have this easy A (or often, if they never actually study, simple B or effortless C). Children who don't do so are the ones who actually need the spelling test and its associated study and practice. They may never be great at spelling but there is only so much of spelling how they imagine others can manage to cope with if they want to be able to communicate as adults. The problem is, most perents teach their children to memorise the words, and get hung up on expecting perfect grades and rote memorization to accomplish this. Concentrate more on the process, the writing of the word, the verbal spelling, the use of the word in a sentance discuss how the letters and sound relate to other words using the same or other patterns. So long as they can spell enough words to pass, they succeed and the 'rules' will make sense sooner. (Admittedly, some kids may never get some of rules.)

The relative low level of homework my son has in Scotland (p3)seems about right. It is enough to establish a habit and for me to be aware of what and how he is doing at school. He has spelling words, a math worksheet and something about the weeks science or history that we are to discuss at home or help with a worksheet.

In comparison, his first year of school, in the US, he had that much homework EACH DAY and ongoing projects due every few weeks, as well as an assigned day each he was supposed to bring in a rehearsed show & tell item. I felt like I was homeschooling him every afternoon. It was horrible. He did terribly due to undiagnosed SN, and I wonder if he will ever have any confidence in his abilities after such a debacle.

Sparklingbrook · 30/04/2015 10:22

If they want stuff built they should do the projects at school IMO. The model of the solar system or whatever comes home the next day-straight to landfill.

LegsOfSteel · 30/04/2015 10:26

Don't know if it counts as a tradition but the norm seems to be to sit primary school pupils in groups at tables. DD asked to be sat by herself as she gets more work done as it's easier to concentrate. Surely group working does not work for every child. The class has had a shuffle about and DD is back on a group table.

CloserToFiftyThanTwenty · 30/04/2015 10:28

Homework means I vaguely know what DS is up to each day (better communication from school and a better response than "I've forgotten" from. DS could resolve this, though)

I don't mind it now DS is old enough to do it himself with some cursory supervision from us, I loathed the KS1 homework that was as much for me to do as him, especially when it involved us having to make special trips out somewhere (because we don't have anything else to do...)

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/04/2015 10:34

It seems strange to me that back when it was more common for a parent to be home and all.kids went to a local school 25 plus years agohomework was non exist at besides words and reading. and this was at a time when there would have been time for it and it would have all been so less intrusive.

now, in a world where kids are passed between family and friends and child care and parents work long hours, or they have a longer journey to school and they aren't getting home til after half five in many cases. Now We get the homework. homework and tired unresponsive kids.

why? just why?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 30/04/2015 10:42

As a trainee teacher they are both important!

Hmm. As a trainee teacher I'd expect you to know that the evidence for both shows that they are of limited if any benefit and that spelling tests are the least effective way to teach spelling.

Except that would involve ITT providers actually teaching trainee teachers how to teach spelling effectively. Which might happen at some point in the next millennium.

HamishBamish · 30/04/2015 11:08

DS1 gets homework each night mon-thurs. Each week he has 3 reading books, spelling (a test at the end of each week) and maths. It probably takes him about 20-30 minutes. He's in P2, but it was the same amount in P1.

I like homework. I think it's beneficial for the child that they get used to doing something each night and DS enjoys doing it. It can be a stretch time wise as he doesn't get home until 5 and needs to be in bed by 7, but he does it as soon as he gets home and is very disciplined about it. His attitude makes it easy for me as it's not a struggle to get it done each night. I imagine I would feel differently if he didn't want to do it though.

To be honest, I don't remember ever getting homework until I was well into senior school (apart from a few reading words in a tin!). That was in the 70's/80's and like Giles says, we had more time at home so it would have been more doable than it is for a lot of families nowadays.

Andrewofgg · 30/04/2015 12:17

Slightly o/t but two posters have mentioned OFSTED so here goes anyway.

What is the difference between a cosmetic surgeon and OFSTED?

One tucks up features . . .

HeinousPieTrap · 30/04/2015 13:31

Grin Andrewofgg

DoraGora · 30/04/2015 13:37

Well, yes. You need to be able to fix a car, build a house, kill and gut a sheep, make your own clothes and shoes and dredge the local stream. But, school teaches you about sine, cosine and tangent. I haven't used them, yet. But, I'm still hopeful.

Coyoacan · 30/04/2015 15:16

I'm not an educationalist, but I am surprised that people think that spelling tests don't help teach spelling. I live in Mexico and, of my generation, the only people who can spell are the ones who went to private schools that had spelling tests. Spanish is extremely phonetical and the public school system only teach the phonetics of spelling. My friend who went to the public school system were otherwise very well educated, I may say.

TwoOddSocks · 30/04/2015 15:37

Coyoacan The evidence shows that spelling tests are ineffective, especially compared to other methods. The correlation you've noticed between private school students and being able to spell is likely to be really to do with education in general.

steppemum · 30/04/2015 15:53

hmm, trainee teacher - you have been brainwashed. RESEARCH shows that spelling lists do not work. So you can feel great giving them out, but if you want your class to improve their spelling, find other ways, there are many, the lists aren't one of them.

coyoacan - it isn't what we think, it is what research has shown. I suspect the schools that use lists are also doing something right in class wrt spelling.

I never understand the problem people have with homework. DDs homework is generally a reading book twice a week, some spelling words and sentences and maths practice. I don't understand why people object to it.

That is because for your kids it isn't an issue. But for many families it really is. Ds is now in year 7 and does hw with no fuss in his grammar school. But at primary, this was a typical saturday:

me - ds hw time.
ds - no just a minute, I'll do it later
me - no now (gets ds to table with pencil and paper etc)
ds then fiddles, moans, complains, whines for half an hour. I get firmer, he resharpens pencil 10 times, I remove sharpener and get firmer.

2 hours of prevaricating and complaining later, no hw is done, saturday morning is gone, my relationship with him is in tatters, and he is STILL not doing hw.
(and before you ask, yes hw was right level, he just didn't want to do it. typically he would finally give up, do the work, and it would take 20 minutes)

In the end I refused to sacrifice hours and hours of precious family time to a pointless piece of work. His need to be outside running and being physical was higher than he need to do hw.
One half term I told his teacher, sorry we will not be writing a diary this half term as ds is going away, and I explained that our last break had been taken over by the DAILY 2 HOUR battle to do the 10 minutes of daily diary writing she had asked for.

steppemum · 30/04/2015 15:56

forgot to add, teacher had no idea, she thought she was giving out 10 minutes of work...

Bonsoir · 30/04/2015 15:59

My DD (10) had three long pieces of work to do during her two-week Spring break. Personally, I love the opportunity for her to really focus on something that is long and challenging and needs to be broken down into several steps, all of which require thought and application. It does her a lot of good.

OrlandoWoolf · 30/04/2015 16:08

A 10 year old should be enjoying themselves over the holiday period. Plenty of time for long, challenging work later.

OP posts:
steppemum · 30/04/2015 16:12

bonsoir - and that may suit your dds personality, but it really isn't great for many kids.

We spent the spring break outside. Football, climbing trees, finding frogspawn, planting seeds, digging the garden.
Going out as a family to park, on bike rides, for picnics.
Flopping in front of TV with pizza and pjs
Reading and reading and reading their own choice of books.

I would not have appreciated any hw in that time, I think there are many important things that happen in family life that are not paper and pencil based.

And I speak as a parent who is highly supportive of education and has 1 in super selective grammar and one preparing for the 11+

LegsOfSteel · 30/04/2015 16:14

steppemum
I used to give three alternatives:

  1. If you start the hw now I'll help you (and we can do it in small chunks)
  2. Or, you can do it later by yourself
  3. Or, don't do it and you explain to teacher why it's not done.
Though DD likes to follow the rules so would not want to go to school without completed hw - so I admit I've got it easy there.
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