Good manners start with saying grace before lunch.

[MisForMumNotMaid]

So todays newsletter from school informs me.

If children don't fulfill this criteria they can not sit at the top table during lunch and be part of the schools behavioual reward system.

DS2 (yr 5) attends the school we could get a place at when we moved to the area begining of yr4 its C of E.

The letter is encouraging parents to teach their children manners. DS has received several awards at this school for manners. Two through the after school sports club, one through the school awards system and was given a certificate in the family assembly.

I have no intention of saying grace or attending church so that he can meet this latest criteria on having manners.

Its the first time i've felt very conflicted about the religious element in the school.

AIBU to be annoyed about this in my only option for within 3 miles state education or is it okay for religious schools to be religion biased and I just need to accept its part of the deal?

MisForMum

That's exactly how I would be - really itching to go in a have a word but trying to balance that with the effect on my son.
Honestly, my advice would be to let it go.
I would let him fit in and let him get the confidence to fight the fights he will need to when he is older.

But that is me, based on my looking back at my now adult son at that age. You know your son best. And arguing when you are right is sometimes good for the soul

"Rubbish, I appreciate the OP had Hobson's choice over the availability of schools but things like saying grace, religious assemblies etc r to be expected from a faith school."

Agreed. What is not to be expected from a faith school is a whole school behaviour reward system which can only be participated in by Christians. That is discriminatory.

Not helpful but apparentlyy grandfather used to say 'Grace before meals, grace after. Them that hasn't had enough, should've eaten faster'!

Agreed. What is not to be expected from a faith school is a whole school behaviour reward system which can only be participated in by Christians. That is discriminatory.

But how do we know that only Christians can participate? Unless the school only permits certain, Christian wordings to be used.

I consider myself Christian but this makes me .
A reward system based on participation in saying grace?!

I'm bending strongly towards letting DS just fit in by saying a simple 'thank you to those who've provided my food'.

On reading the newsletter again it just says say grace before lunch. It doesn't say Christian grace.

In lifes battles this probably isn't a big one thats worth waisting too much energy on. I just get a little frustrated by bias like this.

Thank you for helping me get a sense of perspective. Time for .

When I was a child growing up in the seventies I went to a C of E primary school because it was our catchment area school. We weren't a particularly religious family.

At school grace was said before school dinners. At home we never bothered.

Personally, I would tell my kids to co-operate with what was required at school, but as far as I am concerned no school, faith or otherwise, dictates what we do at home.

It's pretty crap that your only choice is a CoE school, and you're certainly not unreasonable to be annoyed about this sort of nonsense. The question is what you do about it and how you avoid your DS being stigmatised.

Personally I would just chuck the newsletter in the bin (or if you are really cross you could ceremoniously burn it) and explain to your DS that you don't say grace at home. He's old enough to understand this, and he is also old enough to say grace on his own if he wishes.

My own experience (atheist, kids attended a catholic primary for practical reasons) is that children your DS's age are quite capable of understanding that parents do not always share the same values as teachers. My DD joined in the Catholic stuff at school quite happily, going so far as to attend (voluntary) catechism classes and consider getting baptized. We didn't interfere at all and the religion got dropped like a hot potato as soon as she went to secondary school. She's now an atheist and hates religion so all the nuns' hard work obviously paid off ;) My second child never showed the slightest interest in religion and always chose to opt-out of religious observance at school - but it was his choice not mine.

For fucks sake who sends their kids to a religious school and then complains about religious practices???!! I agree grace isn't necessary to prove you have manners...I'm a complete atheist... but it's ridiculous to be surprised ! Bit like being offended there's no meat on offer in a veggie restaurant.

Nice, calm, measured post there Primadonnagirl.

Appropriate nick name, primadonnagirl!

The point is not the religious practices, which obviously the OP has a statutory right to opt her child out of, but the fact that the school behaviour reward scheme includes religious onservance- and therefore discriminates agains non Christians, who woud not be able to take part.

No I'm not calm I'm annoyed! So many kids suffer lots of harsh injustices at school but really this isn't one of them.my point is , it isn't right..but it's hardky surprising..the clues are there.

'Dear HT (copy to the chair of governors)
thank you for your letter about encouraging good manners
we are very keen on good manners and of course welcome the chance to work with you on this
however I am a little puzzled by the idea that saying grace is 'good manners'. Unless I am mistaken 'grace' is a prayer to God, and therefore a religious practice (specifically a Christian practice) and not an aspect of good manners. I am sure you did not mean to imply that families who follow different faiths (or none) are ill mannered!
I look forward to some clarification, and assure you that we are, as always, keen to encourage courtesy and civility in our son

yours sincerely

etc

It is beyond witless to ask parents to say grace at home if that is not the family practice. Or to suggest that such parents have no manners.

Good manners does, though, probably include the ability to act sensibly if taken by surprise by unexpected grace, and a few words that you have ready if asked to say grace. When I was younger, mine would have been extremely rude, I'd now resort to the Sellirk grace. But sadly, probably not with good grace. 'Dealing with grace' should be on everyone's radar. Personally, I am utterly under resourced in this area.

There's an astonishing number of people on this thread who are unable to assimilate basic facts. It would really be helpful if, before commenting further, people could note three fundamental points:

1. OP didn't choose the faith school. It was simply the school with available places at the time her family moved to the area.

1. It is illegal for faith schools to discriminate on the grounds of faith in relation to matters such as rewards for good behaviour.

1. It follows that it is not in any way sensible to say that OP should disrupt her children's education by trying to find another school place (even if there is one available) purely because some idiot at this school has decided to break the law.

Primadonnagirl
What are you talking about. - 'the clues are there?'

You sound ridiculously ranty about an issue the op is discussing in perfectly reasonable and rational terms.

I'm an atheist but happy to say rabbie burn's Selkirk grace or Bart Simpson's "rub a dub dub thanks for the grub". Neither invoke religion, just thanks for food.

I shall explain my individual point of view then. I appreciate entirely the OP didn't choose this situation. And I agree completely that grace does not equal manners etc. But , I am irritated by the number of posters on here who seem surprised and angered that a faith school might try to ..however ridiculously it may seem to those of us not of that faith..to impose their religious beliefs on its pupils. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying its hardly surprising .

Had you posted that I would have had no comment. Perfectly reasonable.

As it was it sounded more like a strong criticism of the op who, as you say, is in a situation not of her making. In particular you seemed to be aiming it the op rather than subsequent posters. Which was why I commented.

Primadonna i'm legally obliged to eduacate my children of school age. The LEA i'm within have allocated an educational establishment who are of a C Of E. I encourage my DC to have respect and understanding of religions and religious sensitivities. I do not object to my DS joining in with grace. I am not surprised at the school saying grace or indeed celebrating christian festivals.

I am uncomfortable with the suggestion as a family who do not claim a christian afiliation to be told that good manners begin with saying grace and that we need to do this at home to set an example to our DC.

I realise that I am uncomfortable with religious affiliation being a part of state education (religious education as a broad understanding of all religion I'm all for). In the overall scheme of world problems its so far down the list I agree its not a harsh injustice, but i don't think being a little miffed on a friday night is claiming that either.

All that being said, its me thats ufronted by it. DS2 is happy to take it in his stride now I've explained what grace is. We don't need to say it at home for DS2 to understand it needs (or a variation of it) to be said at school. He's pretty sharp and Yr5 so old enough to play the game.

Slow typer sorry, cross posted.

You are absolutely entitled to be miffed on a Friday night! As am I ! Different strokes etc..a point which unfortunately, in my view, faith schools don't get.

Religion has no place in public life or state education. Your children should not be indoctrinated. YANBU.

We criticise ISIS yet this is state sanctioned. I can barely believe it.

"No I'm not calm I'm annoyed! So many kids suffer lots of harsh injustices at school but really this isn't one of them.my point is , it isn't right..but it's hardky surprising..the clues are there."

It is extremely surprising that a faith school would institute a whole school behaviour reward system which required Chrisitan observance in order to a participate. This means that non Christian children would not be able to take part. You must see that this is unfair.

Telling the children that if their families (parents) don't say grace then they are rude is out of line IMO. Which is basically what they are saying.

Interesting they only need to say grace at lunch though, do other meals not require thanks? That is a bit strange, don't understand it.

Getting them to say grace at school is one thing, telling parents they must say it at home irrespective of religious beliefs, otherwise their DC will be ineligible for a reward is totally out of line.

So YANBU at all and I think you should approach them with what Hakulyt said. Bad enough that children get force fed religion via the state education system when they would not choose to or it's a different religion to the one they follow, extra double bad that they try and enforce that religion inside the children's homes, that feels kind of invasive. How I proceed at home with my children is up to me, telling my kids I'm rude because I don't do X religious observance is just wrong wrong wrong.

IMO.