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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Good manners start with saying grace before lunch.

93 replies

MisForMumNotMaid · 24/04/2015 19:06

So todays newsletter from school informs me.

If children don't fulfill this criteria they can not sit at the top table during lunch and be part of the schools behavioual reward system.

DS2 (yr 5) attends the school we could get a place at when we moved to the area begining of yr4 its C of E.

The letter is encouraging parents to teach their children manners. DS has received several awards at this school for manners. Two through the after school sports club, one through the school awards system and was given a certificate in the family assembly.

I have no intention of saying grace or attending church so that he can meet this latest criteria on having manners.

Its the first time i've felt very conflicted about the religious element in the school.

AIBU to be annoyed about this in my only option for within 3 miles state education or is it okay for religious schools to be religion biased and I just need to accept its part of the deal?

OP posts:
TheMadnessOfMN · 24/04/2015 19:28

What on earth has saying grace got to do with manners? It's good manners to thank the chef and the people providing and/or serving the meal. Anything else is bonkers.

I'd be telling my DC that they don't have to say grace and that I will reward them for good behaviour because the school clearly has no idea of the meaning of the term!

iseenodust · 24/04/2015 19:28

I have sympathy as you have no feasible other state option. There are a lot of C of E schools in villages round here and it would be a long drive to avoid them. I agree with a religion-free thanks such as ^^"For what we are about to receive may we all be truly grateful." That is good manners & respectful of any/all religions at the table. You do not need to take up church attendance.

silverglitterpisser · 24/04/2015 19:29

I think it's part of what u sign up for if ur children attend a faith school... It feels like brainwashing to me n I wouldn't like it for my dc either but it's to be expected really. Yabu, sorry.

BastardGoDarkly · 24/04/2015 19:29

I've just asked ds if they say Grace before lunch at school, and they do! He's 'meh' aboutt it, so it doesn't bother me.

Jackie0 · 24/04/2015 19:29

Its outrageous to me that many parents have no option other than non secular schools.
Its a similar situation where I live.
When I was a child we were allowed to opt out of religious assembly , church attendance ( boarding) but not out of RE which was not in any way avworld view in those days, it was proper fire and brimstone nonsense.

Hakluyt · 24/04/2015 19:30

"A church school is allowed to discriminate in strictly prescribed ways for admissions.

It is not allowed to discriminate against non Christian children once thy are in the school. And having a rewards system that only Christian children can access is discrimination."

I'll just keep reposting this as necessary.

Pagwatch · 24/04/2015 19:32

Tbh if it were me and my child I would have let him fit in but for very personal reasons.
My son has a sibling with autism. He got unwanted attention every time we went out. I was a catholic at a c of e school and my dad insisted I be withdrawn from parts of school assembly. I hated that attention.

You say your son is eager to please. So was mine. He also disliked drawing attention to himself.
So, in spite of my personal feelings, I would let it go.

SmellsLikeSurgicalSpirit · 24/04/2015 19:32

Not in an atheist household, they don't.

Good manners and politeness involve thanking whoever has actually prepared the meal.

I really feel for those of you who have no choice but religiously orientated schools for your DC; as much as all state schools technically have to have a "broadly Christian gathering" every day. Technically, mind.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/04/2015 19:34

I find the whole thing repulsive, discriminatory and a horrible thing to do to children.

There is only one Grace my atheist self can stomach, The Selkirk Grace...

Some hae meat and canna eat,
And some wad eat that want it,
But we hae meat and we can eat,
Sae let the Lord be thankit.

Lovely sentiment and you should change the 'Lord' to 'dinner lady/man'.

In English,

Some have meat and cannot eat,
Some cannot eat that want it;
But we have meat and we can eat,
So let the Lord be thanked.

Jackie0 · 24/04/2015 19:34

Well reading Hakluyt's post, I'd say make a complaint.
Its unfair and illegal.

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 24/04/2015 19:36

"I think it's part of what u sign up for if ur children attend a faith school... It feels like brainwashing to me n I wouldn't like it for my dc either but it's to be expected really. Yabu, sorry."

silverglitter, the OP says her three nearest schools are C of E. Not a choice at all.

I think the situation with state funded faith schools is shocking and unacceptable. YANBU, tell DC not to say it.

Hakluyt · 24/04/2015 19:36

All state schools have Christian assemblies. By law. Outrqgeous, but true. What this school is doing is nothing to do with the law, it is discriminatory and should be challenged.

It means, for example, that a Muslim child could not be part of the schools's behavioural reward system.

RB68 · 24/04/2015 19:37

Its part of the deal I am afraid but there is nothing wrong with teaching your son that some people do this and how it works and what the words might be so he knows and if he is somewhere where it would be respectful to be part of that then he would be comfortable and respectful to those involved.

RB68 · 24/04/2015 19:39

Its a C of E school its part of what you agree to when you go to it

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/04/2015 19:41

Its a C of E school its part of what you agree to when you go to it

It's a State school and the one nearest and with a place. There should be no 'deal' that involves children being forced to participate in religious observance.

PerspicaciaTick · 24/04/2015 19:43

I thought that a Muslim child would use a muslim grace (is it the Bismillah ar-Rahman?).

The OP hasn't said if the children are expected to use a Christian wording, or if they can use any wording to express their thanks for their food. So it isn't clear if a non-Christian child saying a non-Christian grace would be excluded from the top table. Hence my earlier suggestion to use a secular wording instead.

TheCrowFromBelow · 24/04/2015 19:45

What Hak said.

They would not expect children of other faiths to say grace, but woudl have to place them at the school.It is not different fro children of no faith.

Children have the right to be removed from the daily Act of Worship and should not suffer any penalty because of this. I would email the head and ask whether the Governors have approved this.

Viviennemary · 24/04/2015 19:45

It's a church school so they have these practices. If you don't like it send your DC's to a different school.

Original poster
MisForMumNotMaid · 24/04/2015 19:46

Thank you. This is all helping me think it through.

I'm a little conflicted because i'm tempted to be a bit pedantic and pop in and say 'oy this isn't on' as mentioned by Hakluyt but also as Pagwatch says my DS would just like a little normality in his life and not to always be the odd one out.

Hakluyt are you quoting from a document when you state its discrimination?

OP posts:
RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 24/04/2015 19:46

RTFT

RB68 · 24/04/2015 19:46

Its about being thankful for your food as not everyone gets some. You will find as a C of E school they have worship time as well... BUT allowances are made for those of other faiths and beliefs and those without any specific ones. Speak to the school and ask about how its being done, get some facts and then make a decision. It maybe it does need to be raised as being part of the reward system is excluding people - but Mumsnet aint gonna solve it for sure. And no before you ask I am not C of E but of another religion and yes my DD goes to C of E as well.

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 24/04/2015 19:47

That was to viviennemary, not you OP!

silverglitterpisser · 24/04/2015 19:47

Rubbish, I appreciate the OP had Hobson's choice over the availability of schools but things like saying grace, religious assemblies etc r to be expected from a faith school.

Totally agree it's a bad state of affairs to have to place ur child in a school u don't share ur religion with n also the use of grace as a manners/behaviour strategy but, in terms of grace being expected, that is what faith schools do.

MagentaOeuflon · 24/04/2015 19:49

I totally agree it's outrageous and discriminatory and I hate the faith school system, and having any religious dogma in any school at all. Just like getting into Heaven, getting into the school's reward system is based on sucking up to God and following a load of arbitrary instructions. So not moral at all then, just self-serving. Nice.

However instead of fighting it I would say a secular grace (and let DS know he can mumble a secular version of any grace/prayer at school, if he chooses). A secular thank you to whoever gave you / prepared you the food is the only kind that makes sense as "manners" anyway.

RB68 · 24/04/2015 19:50

OP clearly states its a C of E School