To wish dangerous dog breeds and all breeds closely resembling them were banned in UK?

[DustOfALongSleeplessNight]

There are so many nice friendly breeds, why chose a breed that was developed for aggression and fighting? I know individual dogs have different temperaments, but if they were selectively bred for bull and bear baiting, how can they make good pets?

Pit bulls (illegal in UK) are frequently kept illegally and passed off as Staffy-crosses until the police find them.

I think they should ban all dobermans, rottweilers, staffordshire bull terriers, malamutes, huskies, german shepherds and any other dog with aggressive genetics, plus all the breeds that closely resemble them. I frequently see these breeds in local park, off the lead, running amongst small children!

you cannot have the merest inkling of what it is like to be a dog (never mind a bat)
Bats? Where did they come from.

Suzanne, if I had no understanding at all of what it was like to be a dog, I would have no clue how to train one. I understand enough to know that my dog likes food, so sees food as a reward worth having for a job well done. the best dog trainer I know understands dogs' minds much better than I do - it's why she gets paid for dog training and I don't.

True, I don't know what it's like to be a dog, but I can have a stab at it. There is a lot of literature about what you might call a 'canine theory of mind'. It's how we know how dogs signal to each other if they are relaxed, or suspicious, or aggressive.

Or does that count as anthropomorphising? If it does, tough. We need words to describe what a dog is feeling, and those are the ones we have to hand.

does anyone get the bat reference?

Any half decent owner knows their dog and their dogs signals that they're not happy or agitated. I can spot very subtle body language in mine where someone who doesn't know my dogs might not see or sense anything. When I do I step in and deal with whatever the situation is. My dogs have the potential to be dangerous. I know this, I'm not an idiot but their temperament is very, very good so I'm not in the least bit concerned that they will attack anyone. Bring them up without aggression and they don't learn aggression.

if I had no understanding at all of what it was like to be a dog, I would have no clue how to train one.

interesting 'logic'

I have had dobermans, Rottweilers, jack Russells and westies, the latter two were more likely to bite anyone

My Guide Dog is a German Shepherd. Who is going to guide me if you ban him?

No, I don't get your bat reference.

I am convinced that my dog feels blah blah blah
Nobody has said that... but actually, yes, sometimes I am convinced that my dogs feel happiness, or fear. If that's anthropomorphising, and wrong, perhaps we shouldn't bother with welfare standards for farm animals, or cruelty prosecutions for maltreating dogs.

I suppose you have to do it to avoid the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise arise from treating it like a human
Don't treat the dogs as humans, either?. If you'd read what I'd said, you'd know this.

its just naked self indulgence
Why, thank you. I'm flattered. Self indulgent. Moi!

Fido doesn't 'understand' the word, he has learned to associate it with a certain thing
Which is rather how small children 'understand' words, I would have thought.

Suzanne, go on, you train a dog. At the very least, will you have to work a basis of rewards, of knowing what the dog likes. Of, to an extent, understanding what it is like to be a dog.

You appear to be talking from a basis of total ignorance. You are also very rude.

Suzanne I get the bat reference. Thomas Nagel :)

I haven't read the full thread because a) I'm at work and haven't got time, and b) these threads are pretty predictable.

So all I would add is that I really cannot believe that this sort of ignorance still exists.

I don't know what the answer is. I know that there is no such thing as a 'bad' breed, but there are 'bad' owners. And particularly those owners who have dogs for Kudos; for status; for protection, etc are going to choose a Staffie type dog because a Poodle wouldn't exactly fit the 'image' would it?!

I have had personal experience of a friends dog being badly hurt by a Staffie who was out of control and owned by someone who clearly had that dog for intimidation purposes. Because the attack was 'dog on dog' the Police were powerless to do anything.

Stringent Dog Licenses need to be brought in IMO.

I'd love dog licenses to be brought in. And they have to complete a little checklist like complete a short training course, make sure dog has jabs, is microchipped etc.

This would be far too much hard work for people though who think dogs are just accessories.

And I don't know what would happen if people didn't have a license, it'd probably mean the dog being removed but to where?

I just wish this had been a rule from the very beginning.

i do believe that all dogs should be registered to a dog license and have some sort of database outside of microchipping so say if you got bitten a dna swab could be taken from the wound and matched to a dog on the database. also i don't believe labradors are vicious at all my PILs had one that was as docile as can be he never growled or displayed any anger at all in his entire life they also have another lab pup now who is just as docile

i don't believe labradors are vicious at all my PILs had one that was as docile as can be he never growled or displayed any anger

Many people say that about their staffs :)

I'm relieved that someone twigged MarvellousM!
Wittgenstein also had some interesting things to say on the subject, 'if a lion could talk...etc?

"Fido doesn't 'understand' the word, he has learned to associate it with a certain thing, he can be trained."

Well by that definition people don't understand words either, unless there's some platoesque ultimate signified that all people understand by the same word.

Do they understand should or ought as abstract concepts? No of course not, but they do understand commands, they are completely capable of understanding (in their own context rather than perhaps what we mean when we say them) random words that aren't used as commands and brain scans show that emotions are heard and understood by dogs in much the same way as in humans...whether they experience them in the same way is unclear, for obvious reasons, but they're much more intelligent complex animals than given credit for.

I refer you to Wittgenstein and the lionTabulah

tabula, shall we go for a dog walk and leave Suzanne to read Wittgenstein?

your trying to tell me that my dog that gives kisses hugs and knows how to go find her ball when I tell her too doesn't understand words or emotions ? funniest thing I've ever read on mumsnet. dogs have emotions and understand words perfectly

anyone fancy taking my GSD on this walk? he is a bouncy ball of fluff. would join you meh but with the crutches and the DCs being ill it's a bit of a struggle! (luckily my mum is coming to take him later )

Bad owners make bad dogs, so a staffy is perfectly capable of being a chilled family pet or a lethal weapon. It depends how they are brought up.

The sticking point I have is that the damage two identically angry dogs can do is very different depending on the breed.

Pissed off, badly trained abused Yorkshire terrier isn't much of a threat to an adult (but of course could kill a young child)
Pissed off, badly trained abused mastiff / malamute/ maremma can kill a grown man.

The answer is cracking down on owners. Since I moved to Sweden I don't think I've seen a single example of the "brute on a chain dragging its red bull swilling psycho owner " type dog. We need a proper licensing system, chipping to be mandatory, training to be mandatory etc. it's the shitty owners that are the problem. Actually maybe they should be chipped and neutered...?

I agree with all that SkiptonLass!

Myusernameisusername- both of my dogs got attacked by a Labrador for no reason, not all of them are harmless

"I refer you to Wittgenstein and the lionTabulah"

Pfft to Wittgenstein, lol - I don't agree that language is universal or half the misunderstandings that happen on MN alone wouldn't exist.

Also, a dog isn't a lion, they've been evolving alongside humans for thousands of years, with selective breeding adding to that.

I live with my dog, I can tell when he's hungry, happy, playful, in pain, stressed and what it is that's stressing him (not why, but what), I know when he wants his eyes rubbed as opposed to his throat stroked...with no words at all from him.

He has the advantage of being taught a limited meaning of about 20 words and working out his own understanding of others. (Move wasn't taught but he's managed to interpret it as get up and step back by himself, bone wasn't taught but if anyone says it in passing he runs straight to the freezer) he's also picked up on the difference between a cat and the names of our cats...

I'm pretty sure we'd manage to understand each other if he suddenly developed speech.

"tabula, shall we go for a dog walk and leave Suzanne to read Wittgenstein?"

I'll be in the pentlands in about an hour doing just that

badly trained people go on to do bad things, maybe we should have a baby licence?

The assumption that the inner life of the dog is analogous to the inner life of humans appears to be ubiquitous!
I suppose it is inevitable given that they tend to be regarded as family members.
Perhaps it is just a harmless indulgence? ?