To wish dangerous dog breeds and all breeds closely resembling them were banned in UK?

[DustOfALongSleeplessNight]

There are so many nice friendly breeds, why chose a breed that was developed for aggression and fighting? I know individual dogs have different temperaments, but if they were selectively bred for bull and bear baiting, how can they make good pets?

Pit bulls (illegal in UK) are frequently kept illegally and passed off as Staffy-crosses until the police find them.

I think they should ban all dobermans, rottweilers, staffordshire bull terriers, malamutes, huskies, german shepherds and any other dog with aggressive genetics, plus all the breeds that closely resemble them. I frequently see these breeds in local park, off the lead, running amongst small children!

suzanne - it is bizarre and sexist to say that people who own large dogs are trying to seem more "masculine". What on earth is masculine about a larger dog? And status? Huh?
Yup, I wondered that too. I have a large, very muscular dog. We got him because a) he's elegant to look at b) we wanted a dog to keep up with running and biking c) we wanted an intelligent dog.
We may have lost out a bit on c, though...

Still a dangerous tree? should be chopped down, a dangerous dog which attacks should be destroyed
O-kay. A tree drops a branch: it might only need lopping.
A dog snaps at a child: well, if the child was pulling its whiskers and wouldn't let go and no adult intervened, what did you think would happen? It is not justified tops a dog under those circumstances.

"Still a dangerous tree? should be chopped down, a dangerous dog which attacks should be destroyed"

But do you chop down all the other trees of that type as well?

pts (put to sleep), I meant.

'Dog owners should always have their dogs under control. If they can't be trusted near children then they should be muzzled or caged. Children can behave impulsively. But they are more important than animals, so the animals have to be controlled'
^^
Agree with all of this, so often I see dog owners who give their dogs priority over people, really the dog is an extension of the owner so it's a way of asserting the right of the owner to do as he or she pleases even if it inconveniences other people

Tabulah, no but I think there is a strong argument for controlling dogs that are over a certain size or weight

Yes I appreciate that an afghan hound may be a very different beast to a mastiff type dog but still I am in favor of tighter regulations and size and weight seems like the best criteria, given that breed is difficult to establish

Yes, overall children are more important than dogs. That much I agree with, despite the fact that I probably prefer dogs to most children.

However, it is ridiculous to say children can behave impulsively so they should be able to do whatever they want. Part of the role of being a responsible parent is to teach your children not to harass dogs. It isn't a one way street where parents can absolve all responsibility.

It's absolutely true that dog owners should keep an eye on their pet and make sure they have learnt good social behaviours. The exact same thing is true for children.

What is this situation where a dog and a child are completely alone together with no supervision from either the parent or the dog owner? That is equally irresponsible on both fronts.

A dog is an extension of the owner in the same way a child is an extension of the parent. Both learn their behaviours from their household and the people/animals the household introduce them to

A rude out of control child reflects just as badly on the parent as an out of control dog does its owner and can do as much damage as an out of control dog yet we don't scream for children to be better supervised.

Why don't we ban the yobs who live in council houses

*rough not tough

I agree that a lot of parents need to educate their children better on dog etiquette. The amount of kids who walk just walk up to my dogs and start touching them is unbelievable. My dogs are very good with children and if I see the kids approaching I will try and talk to them before their hands are poking the dogs, BUT a stranger doesn't know my dogs or how they will react.

My kids are taught not to touch unknown dogs, if they would like to pet one we ask the owner first, we don't know if that dog for example has a sore ear etc and places it doesn't like to be touched. The same with dogs tied up outside shops, you don't touch it, you was on by giving it a bit of space

A child has the capacity to reason to learn human values and distinguish right from wrong.
A dog does not, it has zero capacity for abstract thought, the frontal cortex of homo sapiens means that we exponentially transcend all other animals, but people so often behave as if dogs have minds which are simplified versions of their own, sort of on a par with children ?

• walk not was

I have to say the amount of parents that dont keep control of there children is more shocking,

About 6 months ago my German Shepard had to have small surgery, so after when we started walking her again we decided to have her muzzled, which was lucky as within half an hour a small child runs up to her in the middle of the park and grabs her tail! She barked pretty loudly, the child started crying and wet itself, then the parents started to shout about how i needed to keep the dog controlled, I mean WTF, maybe if they cant control there brat of a child they should keep it on a lead.

A child has the capacity to reason to learn human values and distinguish right from wrong
So, teach children to behave sensibly around dogs. When they're too young to reliably do so, either keep them apart from dogs, or keep an eye on the interaction.

A dog does not, it has zero capacity for abstract thought
But most dogs have very good bite inhibition where humans are concerned: they know they shouldn't, and by and large they don't. Our large dog could take your finger off to get a stick you're holding that he wants, but he wouldn't. Just... no. Not in his frame of reference.

A well-socialised dog might turn and snap in the air when provoked (ears being pulled by a toddler, for example), and then look very guilty, even though it hasn't even made contact with said toddler.

(Also, have you ever watched a dog work? They can interpret signals and facial expressions and words; they can plan out a search area, running wider and wider. No dog is ever going to give Socrates a run for his money, but a dog can make deductions.)

850 exactly what I meant! It drives me mad that people just stick their hands on my dogs, and yet it's always seemed the dogs fault.

The dog may exhibit behavior which leads you to infer that he feels guilty, but come on you don't really think that the dog is having an inner experience which compares in any way to what we call guilt, do you?

The dog does not know that it 'shouldn't'
'should and ought' these are moral judgements, a dog has no capacity for moral agency, 'should' is a human construct

it presumably has some awareness of the dominance hierarchy and that it will be punished for biting in certain circumstances
The tendency to be anthropomorphic seems to be irresistible!

I actually do think dogs feel guilt, if I find one of mine on the sofa the look on their face is priceless!! And I don't scorn them when they're found there, it's just a simple "off" command.

but come on you don't really think that the dog is having an inner experience which compares in any way to what we call guilt, do you?
A dog certainly knows when it has done wrong. Let's call it submission, not guilt. The effect is the same: the dog knows it has overstepped the mark - set by the human - and it stops what it is doing.

I have come home sometimes, and known at once, by the demeanour of my dogs, that something has happened that shouldn't have done. And I will find the remains of a packet of biscuits on the kitchen floor, or similar. Is it guilt as we experience it? Almost certainly not, but it is a recognition that boundaries have been broken.

I am totally certain that dogs experience happiness, and fear. I am also certain that they think things through: I saw my terrier after a rat once, and she worked out where it was going and rushed round the other side to try and block it off. Dogs are mentally more complex than we sometimes give them credit for: the more I deal with dogs, and think about this, the more certain I become of it.

I know instantly when my dog has done wrong! the lump tries to hide behind his paws! and all that happens when he has done wrong is a simple "Satan go and lie down" so he goes to lie in a corner. (yes my dog is called Satan )

Or perhaps misplaced theory of mind describes it more accurately?
You take the position of the dog but neglect to account for the hugely significant fact that you cannot have the merest inkling of what it is like to be a dog (never mind a bat) ?

The dog does not know that it 'shouldn't'
'should and ought' these are moral judgements, a dog has no capacity for moral agency, 'should' is a human construct
Oooh, dogs do know 'shouldn't'. They know it very well. Terrier on table? Never, when I am in the room. Often, if I'm not and she can smell something up there.

The various hand signals I use with my big dog are 'human constructs'. He gets them. You can (I haven't, but you can) teach a dog the different names of a dozen different toys and ask it to fetch you a certain one. Words are human constructs. Doesn't stop Fido understanding them...

Suzanne, I know dogs are not people. I know that they do not think like people. I also know what I see (just as when I was a kid and was told dogs had terrible eyesight and I thought, given my own observations, that this was rubbish). They are complex, highly trainable, highly social animals who can read our faces and our moods.

More outpourings of anthropomorphism...
I am convinced that my dog feels blah blah blah
I suppose you have to do it to avoid the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise arise from treating it like a human ?

its just naked self indulgence

I've got a massive, muscly dog AND a staffie. They're the least intimidating lumps of fur you could ever meet. Biggun acts like he's been dropped on his head at birth and would shun a handful of biscuits in favour of a cuddle and my staff is well annoying. Constantly in your face for some loving. The yorkiepoo (I know) next door but one gave me a proper bite a few weeks ago for walking past him. Yep my dogs would do far more damage, but they're just not that way inclined.

Fido doesn't 'understand' the word, he has learned to associate it with a certain thing, he can be trained.