School using reward charts

[DisappointedOne]

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

I agree with you on the whole about reward charts and prizes and bribes and stickers, etc. But your school uses them. You cannot and will not change their educational philosophy on this. You can look around for a school that relies on it less, but may struggle to find one.

Based on one reward chart for a targeted issue, I would not think your school unreasonable in their use of external incentives. They are trying to help your dd. You can look into how often rewards are used at your school and how they go about it, but you will have no success in changing their approach.

I think you should have a word about the cleanliness of the toilets. If they are in a state that would make you uncomfortable to use them, then the school needs to target some resources at keeping them acceptably clean. If you honestly feel that is not the case then you should bring that up with the head.

I'm a clinical psychologist working with children and families. I agree with scathings view. This is getting her to try a new behaviour and giving her extra motivation to override her reluctance. It will be replaced by the intrinsic motivation of nice dry pants in time (and the praise and reaction of peers).

I don't feel there is an overwhelming evidence of the dangers of rewards. I can't see the abstract of the 2nd article and the first is about altruism in v young kids. It's one specific study, not the death knell for reward charts.

And while rewards may not be the be all and end all they have there place (and I would say toileting in 4 year olds is it).

Finally your child came home excited about the chart, wanting to go to the loo. Surely that's good.

I doubt she will be threatening to burn down a petrol station when she's 20 if you are not straight there with a minion sticker the second she wipes.

Their

I'd just like to point out that there is a difference between a reward chart and the other types of rewards used in schools (stickers, certificates, team points etc).

A reward chart aims to reward every instance of a behaviour occurring. The child knows that if they do x (use the toilet) they will get y (sticker on the chart). There is a danger (as stated in the article) that the child will only do x in order to get y, and when y is withdrawn, they will no longer do x.

The other types of rewards are given intermittently. So when the child does x, they don't know for sure that they will get y. They will probably have to do x several times before y happens. So while they might begin by doing x just to try and get y, the fact that they have done x several times before y happens means that x can become rewarding in its own right. Or for a child that has been 'gentle parented' and x is already the reward, y is a bonus and doesn't undo the gentle parenting. If the child doesn't get y, they're not going to abandon x.

This kind of intermittent reward schedule is very effective- it's like gambling. You don't know when the jackpot will occur so you don't give up just because you haven't had one in a while. And the activity in itself does become rewarding.

As with any tactic you will always find research for and against.

This is a reward to try to get her to take control of a specific action and to make her more aware. Hopefully it works and the positive reinforcement of the stickers helps her. It doesn't mean that she will expect a sticker when she goes for a wee at 15!

You do sound very negative about the school- do you have other problems with it?

I can understand why you feel frustrated that you DD is coming home wet most days however you seem to be very negative towards the school, the toilets are terrible, the food is muck and you have real issues with the way the teaching staff manage behaviour. It's fair enough that you don't like star charts and don't use them at home but when your DC go to school you need to relinquish some of that control and accept that they do things differently (I don't buy that star charts are creating a generation of entitled, would be arsonists, no matter what a few papers with dubious scientific rigor and authors with an agenda have written). I think one of the most important lessons DC can learn is being able to rub along ok with others and accept that other people do things differently, help facilitate this and you'll help her more in the long run than going into school complaining about star charts. It's only reception there will be lots more problematic things that happen through school, pick your battles or you may be written off as awkward and precious whenever you bring complaints. I'd say try and support the school's approach to helping your daughter with the problem, you all want the same thing ultimately.

You had a problem with DD wetting. They have implemented a system to help her individually. They are helping her learn toilet control. It's working Now you have an issues with that ?!????
Take her out and home school

My son was similar at that age. It was really stressful at the time and we tried everything. All I can say is that he grew out of it when he was about 6/7. The doctor said he had a sensitive bladder.

I'd just be tempted to give the chart a try, it might work. She is still very little, kids do things at different ages and respond to different things.

I agree that her enthusiasm for the new chart may over ride her worries amd busyness and it may just work.

Does your medication need reviewing? No, it was reviewed by my psychiatrist 2 months ago, thanks.
Did you mean to be so fucking offensive?

OP like others on here I'm qualified in psychology and I've read the article. I don't agree with everything it says. Used carefully reward charts can be a useful tool. Toilet training is a good example.

The dirty toilets are unacceptable and you should complain to the head teacher.

DH is Welsh and we spend a lot if time in South Wales where his family live and work. I don't recognise the rewards/threats culture you allege. Your comments are offensive.

With regards to the dirty toilets, yabu to expect the teacher to give them a quick clean, there's a good chance she doesn't get a minute all day to go to the toilet herself! But yanbu to ask if the premises staff could clean them in between the morning/evening cleaning sessions.

I thought I had explicitly stated that I don't expect teaching staff to be cleaning toilets. However, the reception class toilets are through another door and aren't left in such a state. I had suggested last week that she might be allowed to use those in the afternoon instead (thinking that would be reasonable).

DH is Welsh and we spend a lot if time in South Wales where his family live and work. I don't recognise the rewards/threats culture you allege. Your comments are offensive.

But the ones about singing in the hills and sheep aren't?

I didn't say it was a culture. There are pockets here that aren't very pleasant. I don't know whether there has been coverage outside of Wales but 600 grass fires have been started by teenagers in the last week a few miles from my home.

Better get used to the 'reward' culture - seems to be everywhere in schools these days. I'm not a fan either.
That's the second comment I have seen from you in as many days that seems to suggest you know very little about schools and have a negative attitude towards them.

I got stars for knowing my times tables back in the 60/70s , the reward culture has always been there. I used rewards for toilet training. It worked brilliantly. Also used rewards for other things and neither of my dc have grown up to be entitled at all. In fact they are the opposite

With all due respect, if you don't like reward charts etc. then I would really recommend putting your daughter in to a private school or something. Big class sizes and special/specific treatment for each individual child is simply not feasible in a lot of state schools. Particularly if they are using a massively used technique to help your daughter, are getting results, yet you're not happy.

I'm with the little girl if she doesn't like school toilets. I didn't. They stunk.
I will not use a toilet that's public, the thought makes me feel sick. I prefer to go home and use my clean one. But I am an adult and can hold on, OP's daughter is but little yet and I suspect if she's encouraged to use the toilets and keep herself comfortable then she may not grow up to be ultra fussy, like me. If I went to a public loo I can't actually go.

I also carry anti-bac gel in my bag and use it regularly. I know I'm paranoid.

You have to do whatever works to encourage your child. If stickers on a chart/marbles in a jar works then do that. I have always taken the line of least resistance with my now adult daughter and she's turned out OK!

however you seem to be very negative towards the school, the toilets are terrible, the food is muck and you have real issues with the way the teaching staff manage behaviour.

I have a couple of issues with the one teacher. (When you look at schools you aren't generally given information about the teaching staff. They're well staffed and obviously qualified, but I have had cause to question a couple of things since September where i feel the teacher in particular pushes her own agenda. One of these is her adding religious instruction into the day separate to any assembly. It's not a church school. The other was her telling DD that only babies suck their thumbs and they couldn't come to school - she only sucks her thumb at bedtime and if she's tired or worried so not constantly, and besides, that's not something for the school to manage. I'm not convinced that she gives enough consideration for the fact that some of the children only turned 3 the week before starting - and it's full time - and heard her tell one mum of a very upset just-turned-3 year old that she was too soft and he needed to become more independent.)

The food thing is a separate but important issue. They "strongly prefer" for all nursery and reception children eat school dinners. But they're dreadful and DD comes home starving every day. They get no choice of what they eat, it's pre-plated with custard and gravy which means DD won't touch it. It costs me £12 a week and she eats barely any of it. I suggested once that they could perhaps have the gravy and custard in jugs for the children that want it, but that's too much trouble. Other parents aren't happy either, but i'm trying to get DD to the end of the term rather than throw the towel in and send a packed lunch.

I think that 3 and 4 year olds need reminding to drink their water and go to the loo generally. If they're engrossed in play they won't remember to do it, no matter how thirsty/full their bladders are!

As I've said up-thread, DD is only there because we would like her to be bilingual. There's no other choice of school, and I suspect the reception class teacher will be doing things differently again come September.

I think you are overreacting. Wait and see if it it works first. I would address the toilet issue with the head teacher though. There's no excuse for filthy toilets.

OP, do you think your DD is experiencing some generalised anxiety at school? I see that the fear of the bugs, not wanting to drink etc. are toileting issues but do you think she could be tense and a bit unsure about school in other ways which is impacting on her toileting normally?

Are you anxious about school and how she is at school? Making a formal complaint about her being asked not to suck her thumb is a little extreme and you sound horrified by the toilets.

However much you might both be trying to supress it I wonder if you are feeding off one another's anxiety about 'going to school'.

I could be way off bean and the school is not a nurturing environment but nothing I've read makes me think they are doing anything unusual- could it be your perception of the setting?

OP I can understand why you don't like reward charts etc but quite honestly they are not new in education. I used to get gold stars in my books for good work back in the early seventies. I can still remember the excitement and thrill of getting "a gold star", it made me WANT to do well.

Your DD is experiencing the same thing with this reward chart, they are rewarding a behaviour and eventually she won't need it.

The toilets are a whole separate issue and I can quite understand why your DD doesn't want to use them. Have you got a school nurse you can speak to? She might well be able to support you too. Lots of work has been done in making school toilets better places over the past few years but it sounds like something isn't right at your DD's school.

And my reward chart and gold stars as a child didn't cause me to need a reward for everything in life. My initial positive feelings from those early "gold stars" instilled a love of learning and a confidence in doing well. I have a degree and thirty years of work behind me with the reward of a nice salad each month.

Whoops "a nice salad", I meant of course "a nice salary"

Thank you for understanding my issue with reward charts, CrohnicallyInflexible

I believe it's being handled very discretely with DD, which was another concern.

I came on here to say your being ridiculous.

However after reading I think Yanbu actually. The chart has dealt with none of the issues raised. and actually should (as let's face it, it happens) the chart be forgotten about or she wets for a few days and then get a disheartened at no rewards then she will just give up.

They are pinning all the responsibility on the child and none on their conduct which has upset her, the lack of opportunity to go, and the state of the toilets.