To think some people have their heads in the sand about poverty in the UK?

[MrsFlannel]

On here we see a lot about "Don't have children you can't afford" etc.

this article in the Guardian really brings home the effects of poverty today and it's really breaking my heart.

By rights I should be among those who are struggling so badly...and in one way we are...but because I managed to get a degree and get my DC into a school which is good despite living in a very poor area, we're not quite in the trouble many people around us are.

We live in a council estate...all around me is quite terrible poverty. The upsetting thing is that whilst DH and I have decent work...it's not enough to be able to donate to food banks etc....we only scrape by. I'm sick of the people who deny that there's a problem...or shove blame onto "feckless parents"

Yes I very much agree. There really is no point in wringing hands over feckless parents having child upon child on benefits, they are a small minority and I do wonder what failed for them to have no ambition or hope.
I don't really have any answers except to raise the minimum wage and make zero hour contracts illegal.

You're right, but at the same time it's bloody frustrating because there are a lot of sodding feckless parents.

It upsets me when I see people genuinely struggling and relying on food banks through no fault of their own, maybe their benefits have been stopped for some stupid reason or they've been unable to work for a spell or their partner has left, then I see the idiots who chose to live this lifestyle, letting their kids go without, with trainers falling off their feet sat on the street corner eating a pot noodle that they've had to beg their parents for a quid for whilst the parent sit smoking 20 a day, the parent going on about how they won't be seen dead working in the chippy job they've been offered coz its 'shaming'. It's frustrating to me because I was brought up around it all, I was brought up on one of the roughest estates I can think of and my parents still live there. I saw both sides and still do.

When talking about things like this it can be hard to separate the two because at the end of the day it's the children who need and deserve the resources regardless of the choices their parents have made; whether they're people who are just down on their luck or people who know no better or people who just cannot be arsed.

I'm not even sure what point I'm trying to make so please feel free to ignore me

I agree. I have been staggered by some of the comments made by people on some of the political threads at the moment. Where is the empathy?
The worst ones seem to be people who have also come from difficult circumstances and worked their way out of it. There is an assumption that because they managed it, it is possible for everyone. Individual circumstances aren't taken into account at all, and so many don't like to admit it but luck really plays a huge part in life.
Disability for example really can happen to anyone. Nobody thinks it will happen to them, but trust me it does. Sometimes not just one member of the family either.
As the mother of a special needs child I am terrified about what the future holds for him. Not for his material needs being met, but how the attitude of those people living in this country will affect him. The "I'm alright Jack" attitude often displayed on here makes me feel so sad.

YANBU OP

I live in one of London's poorest boroughs and it is very frustrating to see hurdles some people face, that are often impossible to get over.

On a slightly different note, most people can buy a pack of 20p noodles (for example) and donate to their local food bank, so please don't let that put you off. It all adds up at the end of the week.

Yes, the current government.

Oh definitely OP. Shocking how many posters are more or less advocating bringing back the workhouse or implementing some kind of warped, dystopian Handmaid's Tale type society.

As a pp said, where is the empathy?

What is the answer then OP? As a country we have been chucking money at "the poor" for the last 50 years, yet the problem just gets worse generation on generation. How do we solve the problem?

The worst ones seem to be people who have also come from difficult circumstances and worked their way out of it

I have a cousin who's like this. She grew up poor (albeit surrounded by her warm, loving, supportive family), married someone who went on to inherit a bit from his parents, and now despises anyone who hasn't "worked all their lives" - because she truly believes that it's hard work which got her to where she is now.

The fact that she grew up in a time when there were employment opportunities, that they inherited a lovely house, that the same family gave her free child care all the time she was working, is all overlooked. She doesn't have a scrap of compassion for anyone outside her immediate family, and I find that utterly depressing.

She and I are in our late 60s, but I'm happy to say that most of my contemporaries are only too aware of how hard life is for many people.

I don't know the answer - but we do need to stop thinking of all poor people as feckless, and therefore responsible for their own downfall. We should be ashamed that things have come to this. It's our fault it's happened - we vote the wrong people into power because we mostly vote out of self-interest.

Jasmine I'm not sure it will comfort you, but every single day (despite being agnostic) I pray and give thanks to the sweet baby jesus and the little donkey that carried the virgin mary into Bethlehem, that Mumsnet is NOT representative of the real world.

Were it so, the Tory's wouldn't stand a hope in hell's chance of winning a single seat. One of the many notions though that many on here need to disabuse themselves of is the notion that somehow that anyone right of centre is evil scum and that left wingers are inherently "good eggs"

If children are going to school in dirty clothes or without food, then the parents are to blame. The benefit system more than covers food, heating and a roof over people's heads so the parents must be spending the money elsewhere.

Throwing more money at them won't help if they already don't do the parenting basics. All it has done is encourage more to have children without really thinking about what they are getting into and what parenting actual entails.

If there is any spare money it should go to schools so they can have extra help and homework clubs and mentors that encourage them to aim high and ensure they want a better future for themselves.

I don't think there's a lack of empathy but it's reserved for those that actually need it. Choosing to have a family and not work doesn't deserve empathy for the adults, it needs a hard stance so as to change things before the children reach adult age and follow their parents example.

Hate this idea of 'the feckless poor' and am angry to see that some posters on here are joining in with it.

If people have made bad choices then why have they made bad choices? If children are going to school in dirty clothes or without food, then why?

Is it truly simply their own fault and should we really just blame them, or is it a social issue?

Raising the minimum wage would be a good start, but so would laying off this hateful rhetoric.

I think a lot of people feel te way they do/lack empathy is because of the tv programmes that have been on. My dad was horrified that I put some bits in the food bank trolley. When I asked him why it was about them all having 42inch Tvs, iPads, etc. we were poor and he can't understand why people can afford these items and not food or why they aren't selling these items to pay for food.

I kind of agree with with him....BUT the thought if anyone going without food in this day an age fills me with horror which is why I donate.

My husband used to be in a job where he was a signature for people to get a food bank parcel. He would get phone calls of people saying the parcels were shit and how were they ment to make a meal out of pasta and chopped tomatoes. He said there were a few regulars who used to tantrum about not getting all branded /favourite goods. It's these people who give the system a bad name.

I don't know how it can be fixed though I agree with above poster about it getting worse with each generation.

I agree, someone was berating a poster the other day because she didn't have £85 extra for a "better" car seat.

People seem to confuse things being a bit tight some months (which is bad enough) and real poverty and not knowing where the next meal is coming from.

Yes, I think you will always get sharply different views on this. Because not everyone who has experienced poverty has done so in the UK. In a society that is as diverse as you find in British cities, you may struggle to get recognition that poverty exists in UK.

And that doesn't seem to be much of an election issue. Other than UKIP wanting to abolish a guaranteed aid budget.

YANBU

I've totally got my head in the sand. I don't anybody that has to live like this and every time I see an article or documentary about them it gives me a shock.

Poverty really is being hidden away in little pockets isn't it.

The thing is - what can we do about it? The article says that children from disadvantaged homes and children of immigrants are mostly being educated with other children in similar circumstances while more affluent children are in other schools. I suppose my first question would be: 'does this matter?' Many of these very deprived schools in inner city areas are Ofsted outstanding and experienced in doing the very best for children in difficult circumstances. My second question would be: 'If this does matter, how do we change it?' Would people be happy if schooling was a totally random lottery and you had to send your child to the school that came out of the hat, even if it was 3 bus rides away? Children would lose a sense of their local community and wouldn't have as many local friends if that were the case. Maybe that would be worth it if it made all schools equal but I don't know if it's practical.

Perhaps the country could chuck money at a living wage.

What some of the posters with the 'I worked hard, why can't they?' attitude miss is how much more difficult it is these days to improve your situation by hard work.
The huge rise of housing costs relative to incomes is one factor (mostly caused by the selling off of council housing and the way so many people were encouraged to invest in buy-to-let properties.) Another is the instability and appalling pay of so many unskilled jobs. Too many employers not only want the cheapest possible workers, but they are happy to treat them all as disposable drones, so there's no opportunity for training or advancement,and the ever-present threat of being sacked for no particular reason.
And 'start your own business'? This is impossible when you are really poor, as well. If you live in a very poor area, no one is going to pay you for cleaning their windows, walking their dogs or taking in their ironing - they can't afford to. Yes, there are various schemes like Avon, Betterward and the greetings card companies but these have start-up costs, no guarantees and (again) if all your friends and neighbours are as poor as you they don't have the money for a lipstick or a set of plastic pots.

The only way to improve things would be to instigate something like the Citizen's Income. Because the way to help poor people is to give them more money. This benefits everyone, because poor people having more money to spend means they spend it locally, boosting the local economy, and a' trickle UP effect' is much more successful than the so-called 'trickle-down' economy, which has been proven not to work - if wealthy people are incentivised by tax cuts or whatever, they hang on to their money and cut the wages of their employees still further.

I agree re more money being directed towards schools (primary & secondary); the cycle will continue with each generation if there is no intervention.

The dirty, starving children of today become the parents of tomorrow - and are likely to replicate their parents example because they know nothing else.

If schools had the resources, they could have breakfast clubs and after school homework clubs & sport/interest/hobby clubs, they could have better 'lifestyle and parenting' classes to help prepare pupils for life (basic budgeting, cooking, parent craft, how to manage a household, how to clean/wash properly etc), they could have robust mentoring schemes which could help and encourage these children to realise their worth, value & potential.

It doesn't work to just keep throwing more money at 'the poor', or to keep upping subsidies - the tax allowance should be high enough to lift minimum wage earners out of tax altogether (along with an increase in minimum wage, obviously).

Yes, of course we should support those already in that position, but the real focus should be breaking the cycle for future generations.

OP I couldn't agree more and really identify with what you're explaining. I'm from a council estate (schemes we call them) but got a degree and honestly experience survivor's remorse some days. We are also keenly aware that the next step is getting our son into a good school. We have one slim chance and if that doesn't come to us I have severe anxiety over his future.

YANBU

I have seen poverty both through my fathers work in the salvation army, helping homeless people, those who had lost everything in housefires, women fleeing DV , christmas toy appeals etc etc. I've also experienced working in a primary school in a very deprived area - high unemployment and high % of free school meals. Junk piled high in overgrown gardens and dogs and kids roaming the streets.

It was heartbreaking and 15 years on I still wonder what became of some of those children, I wished I could take them home and look after them. One child in my class talked of having to sleep on a sofa because her bedroom was so infested with mice. The whole family permanently had nits. Dinner was chip shop chips and gravy or curry sauce almost every night. Way before JAmie Oliver and free fruit for snakcs in school, this school was trying to get kids eating better and asked for 10p a day towards a cup of milk and an apple each morning breaktime. Some said hey could not afford and lots of the teahcers paid this themselves - otherwise children were not eating AT ALL till lunchtime - how can they concentrate and learn when their bellies are rumbling? Many of these poor souls would come to school absolutely crusted in mud from the previous day on their clothes and hands. No coats in winter. Some teachers would bring in their own DCs outgrown clothes but the kids could only wear these at playtimes and not to go home - in case they were sold for beer money. And there was worse - kids recounting stories of DV etc. Some of the problems we see with poverty was and is down to fecklessness, selfishness and simple neglect. But some of the causes go much much deeper. Breaking the cycle to increase kids aspirations and achievements needs money and more.

Iwas, I know, I meant it rhetorically. My point was that people with the 'oh they're just feckless and it's their own faults they're poor' attitude seem very quick to blame people for dong 'bad' things and making 'bad' choices, rather than asking why people do these things in the first place.

As I said, I think these are social issues rather than things to be blamed on individuals.

oh and something else. The factors contributing to eg. kids being poorly fed are many.

eg I'm OK at cooking - can afford a well stocked cupboard of "ingredients" and have a working cooker we can aford to run. I can batch cook and freeze portions. I can afford to shop around and stock up when things are on offer because money is not tight and I have a car to bring the stuff home in, or get it delivered.
People who rely on buses/walking, firstly have limited choice of WHERE they shop, and many may genuinely have NO spare money at all , so cannot even take advantage of the offers and cannot afford to replace basic store cupboard items that run out. Fuel poverty is very real and if your cooker breaks and you can't afford a new one it mst be grim. Cooking basics should be much more widely taught starting in primary schools.

I will always buy things for the foodbank because I feel very blessed. I do not begrudge where the food goes, and I do like to include treats like hot chocolate or cakes as well as staples because life on handouts is stressful and miserable enough without living on very bland food and I lke to think that a little bit of something nice helps, short term.

YANBU OP.
Depressing as fuck.

Yanbu! We bought an ex council house and luckily both have decent jobs but some of our neighbours, who all work too, are in real dire straights and are paying a fortune to rent. A living wage across the board is what's needed.
My mortgage is nowhere near what the rent is on the same house