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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Wonder Why Tory Voters Support a £13bn cut in benefits (inc tax credits) when hardly any tory voters even receive these benefits?

357 replies

Amylovesgalaxyeggs · 08/04/2015 17:33

Tory voters statistically earn more and live in constituencies that have higher property values.

Tory voters statistically would be less likely to rely on tax credits or other benefits that will be cut by the party.

Aibu to wonder why a group of voters would vote for a party that wants to cut something that they don't claim. Sounds like a of reverse Robin Hood to me.

OP posts:
caroldecker · 12/04/2015 11:19

dawn Not at all about having a dig at you. Your post suggests the 2 items were not linked, mine says they were. My understanding was that the deal was between Khrushchev and Kennedy, not either on thier own? If i have misunderstood, then please explain.

smokepole · 12/04/2015 12:05

Dawn. You say you were not scared of a 'Nuclear' engagement

September 26th 1983 . Computer Glitch on the Soviets side started sending out signals that the US had launced a nuclear attack on mainland Russia.

The Soviets were convinced that the US were going to invade CUBA in the 1980s . The invasion of GRENEDA in 1983 just hyped their belief that it was a real attack , as the huge WAR games going on West Germany at the time. These were the three 'keys' in their plans which suggested the attack was real not fake.

Dawndonnaagain · 12/04/2015 12:19

Carol. It's actually quite complicated, particularly as the Americans always wanted to come out of this looking good, and are inclined to re-write things. Khrushchev wasn't bothered, it was a period in which the cult of personality hadn't made any sort of resurgance in Russia. He also took a dislike to Kennedy on a personal basis, which may have made some differences. Too much to go into on here, but if you're interested, there are some good books about.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 12/04/2015 12:56

Have only just noticed this thread got interesting sometime Smile so need to go back and rtft... but I am really saddened by the number of people repeating the old lies about how we don't have enough money and so it's legitimate to abandon the disabled and other people on the welfare state.

The UK is the 6th richest country in the world

Is anyone going to dispute that?

If not, then we have the money. The problem is that such a large percentage of it is in the hands of the privately wealthy. Other countries which are less rich manage more equal societies that do not require such poverty abd desperation at the lower echelons. And actually the lives of everyone in those societies are better as a result, not just the poor.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 12/04/2015 13:14

And all the stuff about how encouraging benefit dependency and how life on benefits shouldn't be a permanent option... Ok, fine, give us jobs instead. Jobs which pay a decent wage allowing for the current appalling living costs (including the cost of housing). The real value of wages has dropped through the floor, is anyone going to dispute that? Jobs with a measure of security, so that you can plan, so that you know where you will be in 5 years time. Where are they? You do all know that there are far more people on benefits than there are jobs available, and that those jobs in existence only need to produce 1 hour of employment a week to be so counted?

Meanwhile everyone who is in a job is massively overworked - in the public sector 1 person is typically doing the job 2,3 or 4 people would have done 10 years ago, let alone 20, all so that profits can be kept high and expenses low so that the rich can get richer at our expense.

It's that old saw about how the country doesn't owe you a living isn't it. No, but it owes you the opportunity to make a living. All the professions are devalued and under attack. The number of jobs is decreasing and will continue to do so thanks to increased technology. So we need to start discussing how to deal with that and come up with new ideas, not merely kick the unfortunate ones at the bottom a bit harder.

caroldecker · 12/04/2015 15:02

Dawn If you could suggest one or two, that would be great.

Gibbering The public sector is no more overworked than any other sector, and only has fewer people doing a job when technology has enabled this.
The public sector does not make a profit so a daft comment.
The coalition has enabled 2 million jobs to be created, the majority are full time.
Housing is expensive due to NIMBY's, and planning rules have been changed to allow more building - it would have been better if the previous Labour govt had done something about mortgage lending and buy-to-let though.
Just because a job doesn't pay what you would like is not an excuse not to work.

Dawndonnaagain · 12/04/2015 15:19

I have messaged you, Carol.

longtimelurker101 · 12/04/2015 16:07

"The coalition has enabled 2 million jobs to be created."

This is blatantly not true. The major reduction in unemployment has come from more people or zero hours contracts, more people working full time and more people declaring themselves self employed ( while actually managing to claim some sort of benefit but keeping them off the claimant count stats)

Notice today that Cameron has announced that inheritance tax threshold will go up when only 4 % of estates currently qualify anyway. To do so while proposing cuts to HB, CB, DLA etc shows their true intentions.

longtimelurker101 · 12/04/2015 16:08

More people working part time I mean.

Ponio · 12/04/2015 16:40

It's only going up by £175 000 and is long overdue.

Ponio · 12/04/2015 16:41

The difference is that the Tories will simply be allowing people to hold on to more of the money theyve already earned and paid tax on.

caroldecker · 12/04/2015 16:41

longtime the TUC reckon that 44% of rise is self-employed and 40% are part-time (many are over 65, so potentially voluntary). This is therefore 17% of the total 2 million. The total estimated zero-hours contracts are 600,000 people. Assuming that all these are involuntary and effectively part time, that is 30% of the total. Therfore more than half the rise in jobs is 'proper' employed work. The employment count and claimant count are not related, so taking someone off the claimant count does not mean they are employed.
the inheritance tax cut is being funded from pension tax relief for high earners. There will be many more poor people with expensive houses to gift than those who earn £150k a year, so a redistributative tax change.

Ponio · 12/04/2015 16:43

And a great help to their children, many of whom are not able to get on the property ladder at the moment.

HelenaDove · 12/04/2015 16:53

For the pp who mentioned Yes Minister. Channel 4 are doing a series called Ballot Monkeys Starts on the 21st i think. Going by the trailer its going to be filmed VERY close to transmission like Drop the Dead Donkey was (i loved that show and dont think the new one will come close though)

morethanpotatoprints · 12/04/2015 17:09

Thanks Helena

I had seen this advertised, but had forgotten about it, many thanks.
Yes, DTDD was a brilliant programme.

GiddyOnZackHunt · 12/04/2015 17:26

Ponio - really? You think it helps children get on the property ladder. DH and I are late forties with both parents still going :) If we were waiting on our parents to die we'd be too old to get any sort of standard mortgage. Undoubtedly some people do get inherited money to help but I'd think the number of people affected by an increase that lose both parents in enough time to get on the ladder must be pretty small.

Ponio · 12/04/2015 17:36

As I said - it's only an increase of !75 00 and given the eyewatering cost of property now I consider that very fair.

longtimelurker101 · 12/04/2015 17:41

Carol, when the tories talk of job creation and cutting unemployment they site the claimant count and not the LFS. Don't teach your granny how to suck eggs. "Self-employment accounts for 44 per cent of the net rise in employment" that means out of 2 million jobs then 800,000 are self employed and 40 % of those are part time. YOur link also says that its at the expense of paid employment that people are doing this so "tories creating jobs" is rubbish.

The richest will benefit from the inheritance tax raise. Please do not trot out the old line of money that has been "already taxed". Most of the inheritance wealth is in property which has seen untaxed value gains over the last 30 odd years, also very few people will have properties over £1 million, other than the well off. Inheritance tax is a good thing because it stops the perpetuation of life chances made by wealth inequality.

Why can't the funding for CB/DLA/HB be kept by tax cuts on higher rate payers pension relief? Cause its not in their vested interest.

GiddyOnZackHunt · 12/04/2015 18:17

If you like it then fine but justifying it as a great help to get their children on the property ladder is disingenuous.

longtimelurker101 · 12/04/2015 18:58

But its not fair is it? Your parents may have paid tax on property but you didn't . Also the vast majority of properties have increased massively in value through no effort of the owner, so the increases are untaxed as is the income to the child untaxed.

LotusLight · 12/04/2015 19:19

Also the £175k rise in the no inheritance tax band is only for property you leave.If you are leaving savings, not a house the new increased band does not apply (why they always have to make tax ever more complicated is beyond me). Inheritance tax is already a voluntary tax anyway as if you give to your children even if its' £100m and you live 7 more years you pay none so it's a bit of a red herring in this debate.

I would like to see the state stop supporting the low wage economy. It has got out of hand. There is no reason large companies should in effect be given handouts by the state to ensure wages stay low.

GiddyOnZackHunt · 12/04/2015 19:25

Is that to me long? No I don't think it's fair at all. Not only is it not fair in principle but people saying it helps people somehow are being drawn into it despite the increase 'helping' a tiny number of people anyway. I can't get excited about it. It's a bribe to a few people bigged up to look generous. How many people really in need of help have aged relatives sitting on a million quid?

GiddyOnZackHunt · 12/04/2015 19:32

Lotus I agree from a 180 degree angle. I want to see companies pay people a living wage so the state doesn't need to keep people's heads above water. I'd like to see affordable secure rental accommodation available. That in itself would slowly bring the housing market back into line. People could afford to live and we'd be able to focus efforts on supporting those who can't. We'd save a fortune on housing benefit. But we need to invest in social housing to do that. I'd like to see choice in education through LAs being able to build schools as well as housing. Start from the bottom up rather than fiddling around at the top and demonising the poor.

LotusLight · 13/04/2015 10:15

Good article here:

Welfare reforms are working for everyone
Matt Ridley

Job creation has surged in the past five years on the back of Iain Duncan Smith’s tough-love approach to benefits

Five years ago, almost nobody expected that inflation would vanish, as tomorrow’s figures are expected to show, or that unemployment would plummet, as Friday’s numbers will confirm. Whatever else you think about this government, there is no doubt it has presided over an astonishing boom in job creation like nowhere else in the developed world.

The milestones are impressive: an average of a thousand new jobs a day over five years; unemployment down by almost half a million in a year; a jobless rate half the eurozone’s; more jobs created than in the rest of Europe put together; more people in work, more women in work, more disabled people in work than ever; the highest percentage of the population in work since records began. All this while the public sector has been shedding 300 jobs a day.

In a speech in September 2010, Ed Balls accused George Osborne of “ripping away the foundations of growth and jobs” and said that “against all the evidence, both contemporary and historical, he argues the private sector will somehow rush to fill the void left by government and consumer spending, and become the driver of jobs and growth”. (Yup, Ed, it did.)

Is it too good to be true? I’ve talked to economists who think the statistics must be misleading. The Labour party says that the sanctioning of benefit seekers for the most trivial offences, such as turning up late for interviews, has driven hundreds of thousands out of the numbers, into dead-end apprenticeships, cruel zero-hours contracts or doomed self-employment.

In a sense, they are not wrong. The government’s reforms, pushed by Iain Duncan Smith, are indeed a crucial cause of the surprising surge in employment. The reforms have indeed used tough love to push people back into the workforce and off welfare. As long as they are no worse off, this is no bad thing. Given that welfare has treated people like children and conditioned them not to take responsibility for their lives, it is a good thing.

For example, early trials found that making unemployment claimants sign contracts in which they promise to look for work (which is now universal) frightened quite a few people off the system straight away — they had been working while claiming to be unemployed. Regular re-testing of those who claim sickness benefits has brought many fit people back into the labour force, while actually increasing benefits for some of those whose conditions have deteriorated. Paying work programme providers by results, so that if they get people back into employment they get a bonus, has worked.

And yes, the threat of sanctions if claimants do not treat unemployment benefit as a wage for the full-time job of looking for work has helped. The philosophy behind these reforms has not been about cuts, IDS insists, but about reconditioning people’s attitudes so they take responsibility for their choices. Little things can make a big difference: like not having rent paid for you, but having to budget for it from your housing benefit. Most benefits are paid fortnightly but most employers pay monthly, so going from welfare to a job often brings a budgeting crisis. Universal credit is paid monthly wherever possible.

To general surprise, the welfare reforms have proved to be among the most popular things this administration has done. Four in five trade union members think the £26,000 cap on benefits is a good idea, which is why the Conservatives are planning to push it down to £23,000 if re-elected. Polls suggest that a policy of limiting benefits to two children, so you could not get rehoused by having extra children, would be wildly popular, as would a manifesto promise to withhold benefits from immigrants till they have contributed taxes for four years.

Tory candidates out canvassing tell me they are finding that welfare reform, while horrifying the metropolitan elite, is most popular in the meanest streets — where people are well aware of neighbours who play the system. It is a staggering fact that when Labour was in power and while the economy was growing, the cost of welfare rose by 50 per cent in real terms, even as immigrants poured in to work here.

The latest figures also suggest that British people from inner-city estates are increasingly competing with immigrants for low-paid jobs. We now have the smallest number of households with nobody working and a record rise in the number of people who live in social housing who are working. That feeds through to healthier lives and less crime.

Universal credit, where it is being rolled out, has had an immediate impact in making people more likely to go to interviews and more likely to take jobs. Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, German and American teams are monitoring Britain’s welfare reforms with a view to emulating them.

Another international comparison is illuminating. Switzerland has 3 per cent unemployment, Spain 23 per cent. As James Bartholomew recounts in his book The Welfare of Nations, Swiss unemployment benefit is slightly more generous than Spain’s, at least initially, but to receive it you must prove every month you are actively looking for a job. Switzerland has one of the strongest such “search requirements”.

In Spain the requirement for the unemployed to seek work is much less onerous. It is up to a public agency to find jobs for you to consider and you don’t have to accept them if they are outside your line of work or based more than 19 miles away. It is possible to take long holidays abroad while receiving unemployment benefit. There are other differences. Switzerland has no minimum wage and makes it comparatively easy to fire people, both of which make employers keener to hire unskilled young people. In Spain, the cost of hiring somebody at a salary of 1,500 euros a month is about twice as much as the employee receives after tax and social security — three times as large a “wedge” as in Switzerland.

This government’s reforms have made us less like Spain and more like Switzerland. Nor are most of the jobs created in the past five years insecure, poorly paid and part-time. Since 2010, 60 per cent of the rise in employment has come from managerial and professional jobs. In any case, shoving people into some kind of work rather than parking them on welfare has to be better for their morale and their future."

Ponio · 13/04/2015 11:49

Fabulous article. And shows that the Govt is absolutely correct to continue this approach.

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